Tip 17: Online poker is not rigged

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Online poker riggedAfter being fed up with a run of bad luck, a pokerstars player sent an email complaining about online poker being rigged. He was sent a personal reply explaining logical reasons why online poker is not rigged.

I have taken the liberty of reviewing your previous correspondence with our staff, so I understand that we have already discussed this matter on numerous occasions. Normally we would just close your emails on this subject without reply, but I would like to try and explain something to you. I hope you will therefore read the following and understand why it is impossible for us to run a rigged site.

All the commonly held ‘rigged’ theories are certainly possible, and make for a very interesting and advanced conspiracy theory, but they all suffer from the same problem – a fundamental logical flaw. This is because, unlike all other conspiracies, the evidence needed to prove them is freely available – let me explain:

The value of you proving this conspiracy theory is huge. There was one instance, in the early days of online poker, where the top site at the time had a shuffle algorithm that was not random – It was cracked by Cigital, one of the companies we commissioned to review our RNG and procedures. The site fixed the problem, but they never truly recovered and are now not even one of the top 20 sites. Everyone who has followed in their footsteps learned a valuable lesson indeed.

If you proved the PokerStars shuffle was not random it would be worth at least tens of millions of pounds (the value that another site would likely pay to eliminate us as a competitor), and to us it is worth more since you would have the evidence to end the company and the careers of everyone working here.

All you would need is a sufficient sample of hands and you could easily statistically prove the shuffle was not random. Given the amount you play you almost certainly have a sufficient sample yourself. You can even use PokerStat or PokerTracker to do the analysis for you.

Now we do freely give out complete hand history records to any player who asks for them, so we are in effect willing to give out the information you need to prove these conspiracies and destroy this company. To put that in poker terms, if we are involved in a conspiracy, then we are making the biggest bluff you have ever seen, since we are gambling hundreds of millions on the fact you wouldn’t do anything with the histories we would happily give you. In fact we even programmed the PokerStars client to store your hands to your hard drive if you want, so there can be no possibility of us fixing the histories either.

If it is a bluff, then it can’t be a smart decision from any perspective can it?.

So I ask you this. We have some exceptional poker players in this company, but do you think we make this bluff every day, or are we holding the absolute nuts as we *know* you would only be able to prove the shuffle is fair?

What I have given above is also the most basic form of this argument. I haven’t even detailed the fact that my colleagues and I have access to all the hands ever played on the site and could obtain a huge sample of hands within minutes. We have the same potential payoff to proving a conspiracy as you do.

In summary, the conspiracy theories are believable because you want to believe that the bad beats you suffer have a reason behind them. It’s easier to accept that than the fact that in a random game anything can happen. It’s also much easier to accept than the reality that if you play perfect poker all your beats will, by definition, be bad beats – which is a sobering truth.

So – a final question – you are happy to make these accusations via email, but do you want your entire hand history collection to finally prove we are cheating you and make your millions?


Philip A
PokerStars Support Team

113 Responses to “Tip 17: Online poker is not rigged”

  1. James Godfrey

    Ok fair enough I hear your points, but please step back and look at it from this perspective…..

    You say online poker rooms would not risk rigging there cards etc… fair enough I agree with that, however….

    Below are many things of why they WOULD rig the cards…

    1. Higher stacks winning in tournaments = more players getting busted… which in turn means them players will then buy-in to another tourney and thus giving the poker room more fee’s.

    2. More split pots in cash games = more rake for the poker rooms, but no players leaving.

    3. Poker Rooms make so much money, whats to say that they dont pay off independent review companies to say their RNG isnt rigged…

    4. More money in players accounts = potentially more money for the poker rooms, which means the cash out curse could potentially exist.

    I do think online poker rooms are rigged, I have played many cash games and tournaments on many poker rooms, and I can almost second guess now who is going to win a hand, what players have got… etc…

    For example I had pocket 99 on a tournament on another poker room today and I typed in the chat box, who has got JJ, and the player who was on BB shows JJ after it folds around to him.

    Another example, was when I had AK suited first to act I asked in the chat box who has got KK and someone showed KK….

    Then I predicted that the chip leader would win a hand all in against two other players One had AK, one had A-10 and chip leader has K-10…. K 10 won of course….


  2. Steve

    shark_bait, you’re a retard.

    The reason you think poker is rigged is the same reason you completely failed to understand the whole point of the letter.

    The crap you’re listing is also due to something called the “isolation effect”, it’s an error in thinking. So, essentially the reason you think all that shit you spewed out matters is because you can’t think correctly.

  3. guru

    You said that if it was to be proven that sites like full tilt poker and pokerstars would be paying millions and millions if it was to be proven that their sites are rigged and subsequently are fraudelent and hence criminal.
    Well if I were to go to settle down my Company HQ in a Banana Republic where the President and Parliament become my best friends because I add up for a majority stake of that particular Countries Economy and have enough to bribe the top leaders, then I guess it will be hard to bring Justice over these sites.

    So why should they care, even if they are stealing? Most of the Websites know that this is a short term big gain Business, because after some time there will be so much competition that the gains will not be sustainable. Greed is what drives them !
    I have played on most of these sites and if anyone tells me that they are not rigged or very odd in the give out of cards then the person is insulting my intelligence bigtime ! The other blogs that are favoring the websites are simply employees of those sites and not a customer. Maybe they even play much on these sites themselves. I have mostly won in the Casino playing poker, but never won Online. Not because some donkey forced me to bet in most of my chips, but rather very rare cards, when calculating would come up with little chances: those cards would come up the most. The funny thing is on bad beats you can make out that the river comes up with a frozen delay. Its like someone is sitting on a Computer that controls the cards and is trained to bring up the right card for you to lose. Or maybe the Program is configured in a way to make you lose. But it is very obvious. And the problem in todays world is that most Polticians and MNCs are going deeper and deeper in doing whatever they want and surpress the normal people. It is the normal peoples fault to say they are too weak to do something against them. All Idiots: You have more Power then anyone, especially with the Internet !

  4. Dave

    Yes online poker is rigged I’m so tired of the debate and the sites asking for someone to prove it

    even the best theives get caught eventually just remember these Poker sites are stealing from honest people who put there trust in these sites to be fair

    lets face it if you were to play poker with normal hands that are dealt out when playing real poker people would not spend as much time on your sites playing because poker is a game of patience and would be boring to most players to sit and wait for a good hand to be played

    they would just lose intrest in the game so these sites make every hand action packed to make even the worse player think he has a shot at winning

    when watching poker on tv do you no how much editing goes into just showing the hands that are worth to see a 3 day tourney we get a good half hour of tv with average hands as for online every hand is a movie in its self

  5. Andy

    Wow, everyone seems to be extremely anti-poker site. The real genius above that pointed out he could call other people’s hands wrote down the only two examples he’s probably ever seen. Nice job bud. The fact is very simple, poker sites make huge money and they can do it honestly. If they were cheating and happened to see a technician retire, don’t you think it’d be a little bit risky? The simple truth is that online your bound to see bad beats, it’s due to the high volume of hands and players. In a casino you can play about 20-40 hands an hour depending on size of the table and amount of players. Online, the number soars to 120+ hands an hour. Your bound to see more than a bad beat every 30 hands so that’s why the complaints will never stop coming in. I don’t think online poker is rigged, and if I’m wrong, it’s still been a profitable mistake for me :).

  6. Ali

    This is a truth that online poker is rigged. or may be not completely rigged. and who is rigging it capitalism not only in online poker but also in every part of your life. Example invasion of Iraq 11 sept bla bla bla if you open your eyes you will see many in your country as well. SIMPLE IS THAT WHO HAS THE MORE MONEY HAS THE MORE SHIT TO PROVE.
    Answer to being a profitable mistake -> ofcourse it is a profitable mistake that will be cashed out some years after but at the time the same people are collecting some money and same will be against it say about 10 years after. Can you risk to hire a 20000$ per hour lawyer who has this shitty experience of flipping the justice to prove this profitable mistake . You dont. so be in your pants and play only limited online poker that will only entertain you.

    For me it is another entertainment industry and free plays are my best play. At least i loose $500 a year not more.

    My suggestion: Control your gambling habbits instead of blaming these sites. This is the same shit as pinball machines or lucky seven machines so you are making them grow you should be punished. try only free rolls if you wanna play poker arent they fair enough.
    or make your own site earn money survival for the fitest.

  7. j sheppard

    These games are so rigged its laughable…these vailed claims of fairplay,pokerstars and full tilt poker are run by the same people

  8. oli

    I really feel as if poker stars are punishing me….

    Last night, i had pocket kings in the hole, where as player b, had little slick. The flop came K K A, now i know a thing or two about odds, and my four of a kind Kings could only be beaten either by a miracle royal flush, or miracle quad aces. So, confident with my 96%+ chance of winning the hand, bet a small amount and got raised, so i reraised, and got reraised on top of that, the only thing i could do was call all in. So, as a selfish poker player, wanting all the chips for myself, i called.


    As soon as the cards were face up, the first thing player B said was “NH”. Obviously he knew his poker odds, and the chances of him drawing runner runner was very slim. i think its under 1% chance. Anyway, it’s down to the final two cards, the turn…. an Ace, now as soon as the ace came down i said, don’t you f*****g dare! The river…. you guessed it, another Ace.

    Now i know bad beats are a part of poker, but comon, there has to be a line…. and let me tell you, they crossed it, hell they didnt just cross it, they are so far over that line they are in a different time zone. I have never seen or suffered a bad beat like that in all my poker experience. The odds of that happenning are so bad i cant even count that high.

    Now for my own opinion…. I believe online poker rooms arnt rigged as bad as people say, although i do agree that they are rigged to provide players with artificial luck to increase the rake and therefore increasing the total profits of the site.

    After this bad beat, it has shook me up a bit…i don’t suffer from tilt, so that is not a problem, its just i feel as if i cant trust an online poker site anymore, and i will now only play for play chips online, and keep my money for the casino tournaments where i can see if the cards are being shuffled.

    So my advice to anyone who feels they are being cheated on online poker is to leave the site, cash out any remaining funds and only play for fun 🙂

    Happy gambling 😀

  9. j sheppard

    I agree 100% OLI.

  10. D McMurray

    I have read all the above, and my theory is that they could very well be fixed as a friend of mine commented that you always win when you start playing on these sites but after a few days your luck changes and inevitebly lose.

    My opinion is this is to get you hooked to start with and that you can win then no matter what you do you will lose. It also might entice some gamblers into trying their hand at some of the casino games that are available on these sites which you also win to start with and inevitebly lose

    Its the same old merrygoround with me, you make a deposit, you win for 3 to 6 days but come the next week if you still want to play you will have make a deposit.

    The poker is still however not bad value entertaiment, because the time i have spent online I would probably have lost a lot more in any other gambling activities and the freerolls can keep you entertained if you are broke.

  11. ZR

    Some sites appear worse than others. Avoid online Casino games at all costs – Have burnt myfingers several times playing Blackjack – they let you win for an hour, but then never to get never again (constant dealer badbeats). Online poker is definitely safer if you can control your deposits and stakes and notget addicted. My aim is to play sattellites into live tournaments, which is where the real randomn card deals occur.

  12. m_i_u

    well, i’ve read about everyone’s comments on online poker “rigging”….Trueth of the matter is, yes it could be setup/rigged, where u hold the nuts of all nuts by the turn and somehow those quads, or that bigger boat, or whatever just happens to come, and then the rig factor/conspricay theories….Can anyone prove, that it is/isn’t, yes there are bad beats, there action flops, but can u prove without a doubt that these online poker rooms are setting up cards and flops, for an extra penny….
    I really do understand everyone’s point/concern, because no one likes to, throw hard earned money away, but that’s what some ppl do, they play because they want to win, and refuse to let a ugly 92 suited go, or a6 off, for the simple fact it’s there money, and there just stupid and happen to luck out, Bottom line online is online, in real life would half of the fish online really play the way they play, hell no, cuz they would be broke… gl 2 u all if u keep putting ur money in online poker…

  13. baconshmaken

    I love being beat by the 1 or 2 outers, everytime, not 2 or 3 times a day, 5 or 6, it’s something to do with the algorythms in the cards that by the river, as many hands have to be completed, i don’t know if that makes sense and it’s very brief, but a friend told me he has a friend who works for some poker site, and no it’s not a friend of a friend lie story, anyway i’m goin to bed,

    and not playing online anymore

  14. Derrickzilla

    I cashed out $4800 from pokerstars, i don’t know what part them giving me that has in their grand scheme of things, but when you finally amass the skills to win a large tourney, no longer will you think a site is rigged, trust me.

  15. scorchio

    I’d like to tell you my story.

    I’ve been playing casino (bricks and mortar) poker for a number of years now. After months of getting creamed and losing all of my money, i wised up and gradually became a better player to the point where, more often than not, i come home a winner. I’m not saying that i’m the next Johnny Chan but i know i’m a pretty good player.

    About 6 months ago, I decided to give online poker a try so I did a little research and signed up with Party Poker. Now, the two things that realy hit me were a. how bad the low limit players were and b. how juicy my pocket cards were. Surely, for any poker enthusiast, this has got to be heaven. After about 2 hours of playing, my $40 had grown to nearly $200 and this, on the 0.50/$1.

    Then it happened.

    Or rather it didn’t.

    For the next week or so I barely got a playable hand. When I did, i’d miss the flop big time. I’ve had dry runs before so at first i wasn’t too alarmed. However, come the end of the week, I had to reload. I figured that I should deposit a bit more and so I put a couple of hundred more on. Normal service resumed. The cards were back and before long, I’d made up my deficit and then some.

    Then it happened again.

    Another extended dry spell which this time took about a month until I had to reload again.

    After about the sixth time, I began to see and expect the same pattern. I wasn’t disappointed. Sensing something dodgy, I decided to move to another site.

    Enter Pacific Poker.

    Now this one was really beautiful. Within a month, I was sitting on a small fortune. I took down just about every SnG I played and totally ripped apart the cash games. Occassionally, some twit would suck out on me with a real turd of a hand, but hey, there’s no excuse for stupidity. Overall, I could handle the bad beats because they barely dented my ever growing bankroll. I think the high water mark for me was looking on shark scope one day and seeing a sharks fin next to my name. And then it all fell down.

    I suffered the most horrendous run of unbelieveable bad beats you could imagine. Many times I’d flop the absolute nuts and have some twit push all in. I’m not about to lay the nuts down so I call. Every time this happened, they’d get runner runner to beat me. It was so ridiculously rigged. During this time, I must have been dealt pocket aces about a hundred times and managed to get all the money in pre flop about 50% of the time. How many times did my aces stand up? Thats right, none. Every time my aces got cracked. In the space of about a month, I lost my entire bankroll of $30,000 and so decided to look for somewhere else.

    Incidentally, I still go back there occasionally for a laugh. It’s now literally impossible for me to win a hand but I get a bit of a laugh from seeing the different ways they screw me. Get this. One hand I actually won on a small pair yet they gave my opponent the money on a high card. We were both astounded.

    Anyway, so I move on to Poker Stars. Again, I start off like an express train though I must admit that on more than one occasion I got lucky. That started the alarm bells ringing. I knew it was time to move on again when in successive hands, I was dealt AA, AA, KK, AA. On each occasion I managed to get all the money in the middle pre flop and each time I got beat.

    On to Full Tilt. Here I’m quite happy. There’s generally a good standard of player and your good hands normally stand up. But now i’m pretty cynical. Yes, I had bad beats but not more than I’d consider REAL. This is important. I gradually build up my bankroll in SnG’s and ring games and after a couple of cash ins on low limit MTT’s I find that I keep getting undone by the same hand. Just coincidence I tell myself. You must realise that now I’ve become a very tight player and I never commit my chips to the pot without knowing I’ve got the best hand. I’ve long since realised that internet players aren’t very good at laying their hands down so I always make sure I only get my money in when i’ve got the best of it.

    I’m now at the point where I have to start making money. So here I am, sitting at a ring game with my entire bank roll. Not a good move but now i’m getting a bit desperate. In the first hour, I’ve played 4 hands. The rest have been folded. As yet, I’ve not won a hand. I’ve completely missed the flop and then faced a raise. I’ve folded each time. In the next hour I’ve received the biggest glut of cards i’ve ever had and every time i’ve hit a monster hand. Unfortunately, each time, one of my opponents has hit a bigger monster. My set of sevens was second to a set of queens, my nut straight was rivered by a flush, my eights full of kings met with quads, my 2 pair AK was crushed by an eight high straight, so on and so forth.

    I know what you r thinking, right? Wrong. Let me repeat. I am a tight player. I play a small range and don’t bet until I hit my hand. I’m not loose, in fact after all of the bad beats i’ve had, I’m now perhaps too careful. The only thing I know is that prior to playing online poker, I was a pretty good player. Now, I don’t think I could tell you what a winning hand looked like if it jumped up and bit me on the arse.

    At one point I was doing so well and making so much that I quit my job. Now i’m broke. Online poker has done this. Personally, I feel (and with good reason) that all poker sites are rigged. The better you are, the more they screw you over.

    I’m never playing online again. If you do ever see me playing online again take this tip. Call me all in with nothing. You’ll win every time.

  16. jo

    Of course its rigged. Its not upto to us the players to prove its rigged but the sites to prove they are fair, but they wont do this why? If they have nothing to hide allow independent auditors in to evaluate their algorithm, rng and whole operation. Then it will be fair. Online poker is the only business in the whole world where the ownus is on the customer to prove its unfair!

  17. jony

    who are all these dicks saying that unline poker isnt fixed?? and you know this how?? sites saying prove it? i think not!if you if you accuse it,you wont even get a reply or just some corporate bullshit written by lawyers,ill give you an example of a fundamental flaw in 888.com i was big blind,small blind was present but then a gap to the button in a tournament,i was struggling,luckily everyone folded and i was one step closer to a seat for the big tourney,then when i think ill be small blind a newbie comes to my table and fills the gap,imagine how shocked i am when i discover theres no dead button and im big blind again,a big stack goes all in and even if i had 6 aces im still not able to call,luckily i scrape thru and get the seat…..i email 888.com and express my views at this having nearly killed my tourney,there response shocked me…….they say they are aware of the problem but couldnt give me a timescale for it to be fixed,however altho it was a problem for me this time it could be to my advantage if it had happened to some one else……..i have two problems with this,first i want to beat my opponents fairly,second this website has been running since 1997,so am i to believe this has not been reported before or that in that time they still havent found a soulution?? oh and if you doubt the email i can forward you a copy,oh and by the way im a winning internet gamer as i put it,but i choose not to play.the people who think its fair??……keep depositing lol

  18. jony

    id also like to reply to d murray comment 11 on winning hands for the first few days,i played on the above site for three days,three days in that time iwas dealt not one but two royal flushes,two!! am i that lucky??i play live games every week iv never seen a royal in fact most of my friends ages from 18-60+ have never and i get two LOL

  19. ventie

    i played on stars 4 years ago and lost 350 big bets went to party and won 50k at 10/20 went back to stars after party closed in usa and lost 500 more big bets who has ever heard of an 850 big bet losing streak by a successfull poker player, absurd

  20. ass boy

    It is all bogus. The most ridiculous shit on the planet. I win when I play live but I always loose to amazing river comebacks online. FULL TILT SUCKS ASS!

  21. jay froome

    all sites such as party poker, poker stars, full tilt and others, are cheating openly and e are now building a website proving these to include the absolute poker scandal which is not as bad as pokerstars and party poker.

    these poker companies employ people as table managers and online security.
    how these guys getts paid? they enter the high stak tournaments and win these rigged games.
    10 percent isnt enough for these large sarks called on line poker rooms.
    Jst think,
    3 thousand players/victims per tourney at $5 usdllrs each = 15$ usdollars total pot.
    plus the 10% for the poker company =$1500 us golars net profit for the company.
    But out of the $150000 pot ten thousand dollars ill be split to the first 15 winners.

    Now why these onlinepoker owners can settlle for ONLY $1500 when they can steal another ten grand?
    10 grand from one tourney only x 20 tourneys = TWO HUNDREND THOUSAND DOLLARS IN ONE DAY ONLY

    Now these we call large profits.
    Who you think can control them??
    NO ONE.
    So dont ask about prooves for cheating.
    They can cheat more than one way in any table, any tourney anyway.

    The best hing to do is no to go in any online poker unless someone built a site with freerolls only and all winners can be publisised

    Mean time i let you in to a secret.
    If you lost money to these poker companies you can claim your money back from your credit card.

    Banks are aware that online poker is a major fraud and you only have to fill a form asking for all your money back because the company has taken the money by deception.
    UNFAIR gaming it is a deception.
    so claim your loosing money back

  22. SuperHiro

    i see alot of you think poker websites are rigged. I’m not saying they are and i’m not saying there aren’t as i can’t prove it one way or the other.

    But ask yourselves this… how is it that there are players out there that have made over $1 million playing online poker if the game is rigged?

    If you play live games are you saying you’ve never had these bad beats? Yes i know you get them nearly every hand when playing online bla bla bla. If you think your such a great player but still losing online and you think it’s fixed why are you still playing online poker? It’s the height of stupidity if you’re sure these webistes are rigged yet still you play on them. Anyone that does this must be completely retarded. Why don’t you just chuck your money down a drain instead.

  23. Jim Stunt

    How would one prove that the poker rooms are using several “bot players” playing for the house in all major tournaments?

  24. Jim Stunt

    “If you play live games are you saying you’ve never had these bad beats? Yes i know you get them nearly every hand when playing online bla bla bla. If you think your such a great player but still losing online and you think it’s fixed why are you still playing online poker? It’s the height of stupidity if you’re sure these webistes are rigged yet still you play on them. Anyone that does this must be completely retarded. Why don’t you just chuck your money down a drain instead.”

    Super? What? It’s called a gambling addiction.

  25. Potripper

    Online poker is NOT rigged. Without a doubt, anyone telling you so has an agenda so do not listen to them. I am so sick of people telling me it’s rig to keep the cash flowing and fishes from exiting the system. Many even dare to say that some can see your HOLE cards which we all know is impossible. I, POTRIPPER (like the entire industry) can confirm this also because I’ve made hundreds of thousands if not millions from online poker personally. Yessiree, my success comes from talent like the ability to call ALL-INs raises with 10 high! So the next time you hear stories of “shrills”, “doomswitches”, and “railbirds with impossibly low ID#” just laugh it off and know that your money is safe.

  26. Nick Pateman

    Lol, i’ve heard the same thing over and over and over again.

    Infact i made a website with the name as to be totally ironic. Makes for good jokes though huh?

  27. jim

    The opening letter on this page is a joke. I came into this site a few weeks ago and read this letter. I think this guy must think all people are jerks and have no brains. If he thinks posting a letter as above will change my mind about his site then he is the jerk

    The following is a hand played about ten minutes ago on his site. I had folded pocket 4s, knowing if I came into the hand I would get my butt kicked.
    Note this was a pre flop ALL IN

    Alessio831: shows [Ks Ad] (two pair, Nines and Fives)
    bobazumii: shows [8s 9d] (a full house, Nines full of Fives)
    bobazumii collected 360 from side pot
    kalinsc1: shows [Qd Qh] (two pair, Queens and Nines)
    bobazumii collected 3740 from main pot
    tdall is connected

    Note in the above hand the weakest hand wins. This happens to often . In A tourney I played before this one. I was on the SB With k9 os, the BB was the table short stack, and holding pocket aces. All the other plays folded to me. My wife was watching me play and I had told her I will take this player out if he calls my all in. I pushed he called, The flop came 9kk. Cracking his Aces.
    I can give proof to the fact these sites are not ramdom as they claim. I invite you to sit with me as I play there program, ( NOT POKER ) and call what will happen base on who is in the hand and the chip stack each player has.
    For you players having a problem with winnig here is a tip. This is in tourney play only.
    1 stay away from chip leads when they make a rise and you are holding a calling hand. You will loose this play most of the time.
    2 The same holds true if the table short stack pushes all in and you are holding a calling hand. You will also loose in this play often.
    You can call these players but only when the time is right.
    3 play tight, do NOT play any QJ – J-10 A9 THUR A2, PLAY A10 HOWEVER DO NOT RISE WAIT TO SEE IF A PL

  28. butthead

    taken about 30-35 cashouts… only ever making one deposit of $30 on 888.com . only like 80-$200 a peice though, each cashout. all was fine.. seemed normal . some bad weeks here and there, acceptable… thats poker. . playing either loose agressive or tight agressive, depending on the table , and how well i think im playing ( prefer to play semi-loose agressive if im on my A game.. ) but then, i took out 2 cashouts of $1000 a peice. 4 months ago.
    now, even if i play super tight agressive (888.com by the way) .. in 4 months period , when i have put my money all in on the flop, or turn, 1v1… and looking at the cards, knowing im between 85-96% favourite… i have lost no less than 8/10 of these situations. and i play at least 5 hours a day. 90-95% favourite nearly all the time, if my money goes in .. i have lost 8 out of every 10 times.. and this is no lie. i can take a bad beat or 2, or aweek or 3, or whatever. but this, for 4 months? runner runner and 2 outers cracking my 95% favourite hand almost everytime when the money gets shuved in?
    i just wish i could show you my hand history. also in the 4 months, there is no such thing as a safe card.. i raise what i know is the best hand, and i know probably by a good percent … the turn, and river, create all teh possible draws that my opponent could be on, or cards to split it with him … if its 4 of the same suit or i raise with a set and the board ends up 6789 with 3/4 same suit on it. i literally call the turn and river as i bet, however big i bet.. to protect my hand. now, if by some miracle they havent hit.. which of course they do every single time… then, im not getting paid as its a complete scare flop for my opponent anyway. so every hand that i do win becomes unprofitable if i bet it .. and if i go all in, and they do call , if i have 90-95% favourite odds, like i say.. i really do lose now , 8/10 times.. for 4 months solid.
    all this, since taking out 2 larger than usual cashouts……
    *shrugs* .
    i have to resort to finding complete and utter donks..
    to be honest, on 888, i hate flopping top set, even on an apparant nice looking board ( no scare cards ) because if i raise and get re raised big, of course im pushing all in if i think the donk will call. he calls and , as its such a favourite… i lose with it most the time.
    in 4 months, regardless of how played.. flopping a set with A kicker, if all in, now often gets busted by the caller with set who hits lower kicker on turn, if by some MIRACLE it does not.. then it just gives him a split. i have not won when flopping a straight in 4 months….. if i can get the money all in.. tehy either hit runner runner or again… it turns and rivers a splitting straight.
    if i flop a flush, nut flush or whatever… again, regardless of how played… i cannot win with that hand either…
    been done by runner runner no less than 10 times in the last 2 days…
    not to mention the bitter one today, holding k j , on a kk q board.. against a calling station.. who raises. i call with position… next card, q . i already put him on a q, but then he bets, so i re raise.. he re re raises, being a calling station, now i was beyond doubt he had a q… i figure with position i can call this and he will bet again and i can then put him all in. or just go all in… no matter what he was putting his money in ….
    of course… river came q … . not the first time that’s happened to me ill admit.. but that, with the other bad beats ( and i mean, serious bad beats) in 8/10 big pots for 4 months, when im honest to god, 90-95% favourite. often 95% … 20/1 ….
    i only been playing 4 years, but for everyday… but had more bad beats in 4 months, since these irreguler larger cashouts… than ive had in 4 years.. and that again, is no lie.
    been playing for money stakes only a year, on the 25c nl stakes, turning the 1 $30 deposit into nearly 6k … but i really feel like it should be so so so much more…..
    since taking out that 2k, after making 30 small cashouts… i dont think ive made more than $750 .. and thats often because there is always one complete donk who dont even know what hand he is holding… to pay you off on the river when uve just checked down or placed tiny bets in with the the nuts all the way….
    i know nearly everyone who writes here, is gonna say its rigged… else why would you of clicked into google ” cash out curse ” in the first place 😉
    but damn, im convinced…….
    i really just wish i could show anyone here the past 4 months of my hand history. you would refuse to believe it. or even just the past 3 days….

  29. jim

    In my post above, I tell you to stay away from playing against table short stacks when they push all in. EVEN WHEN YOU ARE STRONG.
    The following hand was played in a tourney just a few min. ago. I folded JJ TO THE ALL IN OF THE TABLE SHORT STACK. I FOLDED BECAUSE I KNEW HE WOULD HIT A WINNING HAND NO MATTER WHAT TWO CARDS HE WAS HOLDING. A preflop all in with crap turns into gold. LMAO hits a st8 on the 3 flop cards.
    Dealt to ——-me [Jh Js]
    rutti888: calls 200
    hoagie407: raises 612 to 812 and is all-in
    ——-me: folds
    gstaranto: folds
    tombeacon: folds
    Tartan Ace: folds
    iPoker$tar: folds
    Dadadj: folds
    rutti888: calls 612
    *** FLOP *** [8c 6s 5d]
    *** TURN *** [8c 6s 5d] [Ad]
    *** RIVER *** [8c 6s 5d Ad] [9c]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    rutti888: shows [Td Kc] (high card Ace)
    hoagie407: shows [9d 7c] (a straight, Five to Nine)
    hoagie407 collected 1924 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 1924 | Rake 0
    Board [8c 6s 5d Ad 9c]
    Seat 1: Dadadj (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 2: rutti888 showed [Td Kc] and lost with high card Ace
    Seat 3: hoagie407 showed [9d 7c] and won (1924) with a straight, Five to Nine
    This is the program reading and deliving the needed cards to this player.
    I ALSO tell you in my above post DO NOT PLAY THE CHIP LEADER AT YOUR TABLE HERE IS WHY . Note I was on th BB with this hand. Had I not been I always would fold pocket 22
    Seat 8: TaDealt to —–ME [2d 2c]
    tombeacon: folds
    Dadadj: calls 400
    hoagie407: calls 200
    pittbulljim: checks
    *** FLOP *** [2s Kd 3s]
    hoagie407: bets 400
    pittbulljim: ——ME 400 to 800
    Dadadj: raises 11395 to 12195 and is all-in
    hoagie407: folds
    pittbulljim: calls 2585 and is all-in
    *** TURN *** [2s Kd 3s] [5s]
    *** RIVER *** [2s Kd 3s 5s] [Qc]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    —–ME: shows [2d 2c] (three of a kind, Deuces)
    Dadadj: shows [Kh Kc] (three of a kind, Kings)
    Dadadj collected 8470 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    I busted out on this hand. Taking 4th in prize money. I have yet to win a hand played against the chip leader when I am all in with him. You all know even if you were just hoping to get lucky and suck out just once, it most likly would happen sooner or later. Now please tell me why I just don’t have any luck playing chip leaders at me tables
    When you play on poker stars watch the stacks, Look to see where the pots are going and to whom. Remember them and see if you see the same thing I am seeing. Look for the program traps. Spot them and try to avoid them.
    There are many other things you need to pick up as to program,
    In short playing great poker on line at any of these sites is not good enough.
    YOU NEED TO LEARN THE PROGRAM. And avoid its BS Traps. If you can.
    Good luck!

  30. jim

    Dealt to —ME [Ac 6c]
    pokerpitchen: calls 20
    hoagie407: calls 20
    Ejohnson88: calls 20
    preccat2005: calls 20
    —ME: calls 20
    libs44: folds
    suffhannoi: calls 20
    nougat1980: calls 10
    file1010: raises 180 to 200 and is all-in
    pokerpitchen: calls 180
    hoagie407: calls 180
    Ejohnson88: folds
    preccat2005: calls 180
    —ME: folds
    suffhannoi: calls 180
    nougat1980: folds
    *** FLOP *** [5h 7d Qh]
    pokerpitchen: checks
    hoagie407: bets 40
    preccat2005: folds
    suffhannoi: calls 40
    pokerpitchen: calls 40
    *** TURN *** [5h 7d Qh] [4c]
    pokerpitchen: checks
    hoagie407: bets 40
    suffhannoi: calls 40
    pokerpitchen: calls 40
    *** RIVER *** [5h 7d Qh 4c] [6h]
    pokerpitchen: checks
    hoagie407: checks
    suffhannoi: checks
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    pokerpitchen: shows [Kc Kd] (a pair of Kings)
    hoagie407: mucks hand
    suffhannoi: mucks hand
    pokerpitchen collected 240 from side pot
    file1010: shows [3h Jh] (a flush, Queen high)
    file1010 collected 1060 from main pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    How about this one with 5 players in the hand. Table short stack pushes and wins with a flush. I folded A6 SUITED. Still think they are ramdom?

  31. jim

    Summing this up
    I have posted above just a few hands of the many I could have posted. I have been on both ends of these hands. I won many pushes as the table short stack even when I had the worst of it going in.
    I have called some of these pushes losing the hand with the best going in.
    I made 3 calls with pocket aces only to have them crushed by a st8 or flush or two pair. I have also folded pocket aces, kings, queens, jacks, ak, to these pushs and was glad I did. In some of the hands as many as 80% of them, I got to see the outcome. I would have helped to chipped these players up.
    Now lets not forget the table chip leaders who often sucks out when you have him beat. But if he has you beat going in, you will not suck out and take the hand from him.
    Funny thing just happened as I am typing this post, I am also playing a tourney. I am the table short stack look what happens
    Dealt to pittbulljim [Th Jc]
    xantilius: raises 1350 to 1450 and is all-in
    iownyou66: folds
    smokyxxx: folds
    gpasi420: folds
    lnascarfa06: folds
    snake2077: folds
    pittbulljim: calls 990 and is all-in
    MaVEricK9966: folds
    Popcorn 222: folds
    *** FLOP *** [Js Td 3c]
    *** TURN *** [Js Td 3c] [7d]
    *** RIVER *** [Js Td 3c 7d] [5d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    xantilius: shows [Kc Ah] (high card Ace)
    pittbulljim: shows [Th Jc] (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
    pittbulljim collected 2130 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 2130 | Rake 0
    Board [Js Td 3c 7d 5d]
    Seat 1: MaVEricK9966 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 2: Popcorn 222 (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 3: xantilius showed [Kc Ah] and lost with high card Ace
    Seat 4: iownyou66 folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
    Seat 5: smokyxxx folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
    Seat 6: gpasi420 folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
    Seat 7: lnascarfa06 folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
    Seat 8: snake2077 folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
    Seat 9: pittbulljim (button) showed [Th Jc] and won (2130) with two pair, Jacks and Tens
    LMAO- Just got busted out by the chip leader
    Dealt to pittbulljim [Td Ts]pittbulljim: raises 1130 to 1380 and is all-inpuzruz: folds KingFisha420: folds NETOAAAA: folds gaviotta: folds muedi: folds * Ecci 68 *: folds costello99: folds box72: calls 1130*** FLOP *** [5h 8c 7s]*** TURN *** [5h 8c 7s] [Jc]*** RIVER *** [5h 8c 7s Jc] [7h]*** SHOW DOWN ***box72: shows [8s Jh] (two pair, Jacks and Eights)pittbulljim: shows [Td Ts] (two pair, Tens and Sevens)box72 collected 3110 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 3110 | Rake 0 Board [5h 8c 7s Jc 7h]Seat 1: NETOAAAA folded before Flop (didn’t bet)Seat 2: gaviotta folded before Flop (didn’t bet)Seat 3: muedi folded before Flop (didn’t bet)Seat 4: * Ecci 68 * (button) folded before Flop (didn’t bet)Seat 5: costello99 (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 6: box72 (big blind) showed [8s Jh] and won (3110) with two pair, Jacks and EightsSeat 7: pittbulljim showed [Td Ts] and lost with two pair, Tens and SevensSeat 8: puzruz folded before Flop (didn’t bet)Seat 9: KingFisha420 folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
    Ok lets sum this up.
    Is online poker RIGGED? In my eyes YES, How about yours. Have my posts help you to see the light? i hope so.
    Can you win playing online Yes, But you will only win what the program will let you win. AND no more than that.
    Are the cards that being DEALT all cards dealt RAMDOM? Not in my eyes. How about yours?
    Do short stacks and chip leaders have an advanage? IN MY EYES YES. HOW ABOUT YOURS
    Will I make any more deposits? NO. How about You?

  32. JohnWilliamson

    metfair poker is rigged
    i have been playing on there for 4 years and have the folllowing stats
    hole cards above an 8 = 9%
    hole cards below an 8 = 63%
    deuces that come in hole cards 35%
    aces that come in hole cards 3%
    hands wom when all in in the lead 14%
    hands won when all in not in lead 2%
    this can be proved by my hand history
    if u wish to see it

  33. JohnWilliamson

    they are cheating
    they register in Malta
    no real laws to scrutinise them
    not liable to any laws in this country
    have seeded players
    and decisions after the call
    only response you get from them is “it is random”
    well no way is it random

  34. b pellett

    I have played poker live for over 20 years,i have played on most of the sites.I kept a very open mind for along time as to whether or not the rumours of a rigged game were true,infact i strongly leaned towards them not being rigged.Since that time a few years ago and having played many hours online(mostly on pokerstars)i have come to the conclusion that they are indeed rigged.I am so convinced of this that nothing could change my mind.I dont care how many employees of pokerstars come forward saying it is not ,by the way did you know that 25% of pokerstars is owned by the employees giving them an even stronger motivation to testify as to the fairness of the game.Hand histories mean NOTHING!!!.Even if the companies that tested the software were legitimate this means NOTHING. Nobody is saying that every 10th card will be an ace or some kind of pattern like that,ofcourse they could not predict what card is coming next, as it can be determined as needed by the software.These companies are indeed motivated by greed,they are unregulated,based in a banana republic and answer to nobody.If you play online keep the sites guessing by not giving all of your buisness to one site,make them want to keep you happy,or everyone boycott them for a month and see what happens…good luck!(does not apply to online poker,luck not involved).

  35. billy bob

    Man i saw this dude and he went all in ok you following me and he had 22 and he gets called by ak jq 9 10 7 8 and 34 and he loses to two pair aces and kings well the pair of deuces was the best hand and it lost man this is so rigged i dont see how he lost i mean he had a pair of deuces

  36. Ralph Otriz

    Okay I think some poker rooms are rigged (Full Tilt) because I had pocket Qs and I get called by two players and one had pockets 7s and the other had 8-7 and on the river of all cards to come out is a 7?! What are the odds of that really? Another time I had A-10 and flopped the nuts (straight Ace high) and the flop was rainbow I go all in and get called the player had Q-8 of diamonds and he caught runner runner for a flush! are you kidding me? Come on? can anyone explain it to me?

  37. The Truth

    Are people nuts? ALL, yes all the poker sites are rigged. Rigged for them (the owners) not exactly. They are rigged to keep you constantly putting money in. Plain and simple! They make money either way!!! Full Tilt is the biggest joke and they should be ashamed for their crap software and miracle hands seen. As a matter of fact, Full tilt should be sued, prosecuted for fraud, and their owners shot! AP is right behind them. Heck, they have an investigation into millions stole by there OWN people. Blowdog is another joke of a site and just as many bad beats there. Play live poker.

  38. brian murphy

    everyone seems to miss one simple point, how on earth can you program a computer to do something randon, there is no equation to it, and the equation used to program all the poker sites is badly off the mark, if you can give me the equation for random, please do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  39. Jojo

    It’s rigged. Why wouldn’t they rig it?

  40. Jojo

    And yeah, to all the idiots who say “why play if it’s rigged?” it’s because people are addicted to gambling! Duh.

  41. dazzammm

    im not going to post a hand history or quote 1 hand as evidence that pokers fixed but im going to ask if any of the following ring true.

    winning for the first few days / weeks of joining a site and then losing it all and more???

    knowing that you going to have a bad session after your first bad beat is followed by bad beat after bad beat usually to the one card in the deck that improves your hand AND your opponents hand ??? (e.g. K of spades giving you a straight but your opponent a flush)

    knowing when you will have a good session within 5 minutes when you win a few hands which then just carries on and on.

    I believed that poker wasnt fixed but does any one else think that their loses AND wins follow a pattern and the quality of your session is decided as soon as you sit down ???

    PS I made a bundle on fulltilt when i first opened the account while waiting 10 months for a free gift to arrive. as soon as it arrived the CONSISTENT bad beat started

  42. dazzammm

    which site do people think is the most rigged (out of the big ones)

    stars, party or full tilt ???

    my vote is for full tilt (you sit down at another site and it just “feels” different. the winning hands are smaller, your cards are worse (which is a good thing). ive lost the last 5 times with jacks on Fulltilt

  43. CroPro

    Of course its Rigged,
    I lost 5 out of 6 all inn’s
    And was at least 4:1 dog.

    Shouldnt be opposite????????
    Hand history tell me that my pocket pair of aces are as good as my 83????

    And that is normal?

  44. Captain Truth

    If you want to discuss whether online poker (or anything for that matter) is “rigged”, you have to define what exactly we mean by “rigged”. If your definition of “rigged” is: where the outcome is predetermined or determined by some kind of collusion, the online poker is NOT rigged.

    If, however, you define “rigged’ as being: where the process is significantly different then the participants think or believe, then online poker IS. The fact of the matter is that the method used to determine hands is nothing even remotely close to what the players understand it to be.

    In order to understand what online poker is, we must understand from where it comes and how it came about. Online poker was NEVER intended to be a re-creation of poker, only online. It did not arise as a result of demand by poker players for alternative venues. In short – it was never for POKER PLAYERS.

    Online poker was designed specifically as a product to meet the demand for this “thing” that people saw on TV after Stephen Libscomb designed the WPT broadcast. Up to that point, poker was NOT popular in the U.S. Why? Because it’s like soccer – it’s BORING – that’s why! There was no need to create an online version of an activity that very few people were interested in. However, once people got exposed to seeing “poker on steroids” – the most exciting highlights culled specifically for entertainment value – TELEVISION POKER – people were interested in doing THIS.

    And THIS is what online poker was intended to simulate. It was NEVER intended to be a simulation of an essentially slow-moving, boring activity. People saw TV POKER and wanted THAT. The task given to the programmers was to create something with the same excitement level and action aspects of the TV POKER product that attracted people in the first place.

    Hence, when it looks like A5 is beating AK more than, say 1 time out of 4 – this is why. It’s because IT IS. It’s because it does ON TV and this is what 99.9% of the online players were expecting. If it seems like the river card is deciding the results of the hand a lot – if it seems like someone seems to be hitting that 3-outer more than 8 times out of 100 (LOLOL) – it’s because THEY ARE – because they do ON TV

    The reasons why the process would NOT be different – the reasons people give – are all ridiculous. I have posted on other forums and will hear if need be. I also can explain the manner in which hands are decided and dealt.

  45. Captain Truth

    If you want to discuss whether online poker (or anything for that matter) is “rigged”, you have to define what exactly we mean by “rigged”. If your definition of “rigged” is: where the outcome is predetermined or determined by some kind of collusion, the online poker is NOT rigged.

    If, however, you define “rigged’ as being: where the process is significantly different then the participants think or believe, then online poker IS. The fact of the matter is that the method used to determine hands is nothing even remotely close to what the players understand it to be.

    In order to understand what online poker is, we must understand from where it comes and how it came about. Online poker was NEVER intended to be a re-creation of poker, only online. It did not arise as a result of demand by poker players for alternative venues. In short – it was never for POKER PLAYERS.

    Online poker was designed specifically as a product to meet the demand for this “thing” that people saw on TV after Stephen Libscomb designed the WPT broadcast. Up to that point, poker was NOT popular in the U.S. Why? Because it’s like soccer – it’s BORING – that’s why! There was no need to create an online version of an activity that very few people were interested in. However, once people got exposed to seeing “poker on steroids” – the most exciting highlights culled specifically for entertainment value – TELEVISION POKER – people were interested in doing THIS.

    And THIS is what online poker was intended to simulate. It was NEVER intended to be a simulation of an essentially slow-moving, boring activity. People saw TV POKER and wanted THAT. The task given to the programmers was to create something with the same excitement level and action aspects of the TV POKER product that attracted people in the first place.

    Hence, when it looks like A5 outflops AK only to be turned or rivered more then 1 time in 10 – this is why. It’s because IT IS. It’s because it does ON TV and this is what 99.9% of the online players were expecting. If it seems like the river card is deciding the results of the hand a lot – if it seems like someone seems to be hitting that 3-outer more than 8 times out of 100 (LOLOL) – it’s because THEY ARE – because they do ON TV

    The reasons why the process would NOT be different – the reasons people give – are all ridiculous. I have posted on other forums and will hear if need be. I also can explain the manner in which hands are decided and dealt.

  46. Khuram Ali

    point no.1
    do simple analysis. at the middle of game not at start not at final table.
    record all the hands that chip wins and record all the hands that other players wins. make a graph my result was 78% chip leader wins althought half the time he has less ranked hand than the other player.
    If you have same results ask why is that?
    point no.2
    hand history is not available what you get is only what you played.
    you can not see other peoples card which is folded if you want to prove something information need to be fully available. they say the provide complete hand history to independent sources but i think they are not independent. An independent source would be some thing like last years history available to buy for normal people.
    point no.3
    there are software algorithms available i mean AI and neural networks capable of manipulating the deal . If you are a IT student like me may be you know that you only had to define some function to favour the poker site statistically. lets take an example I want maximum rakes R or I want maximum number of player having there rank always in the middle. It is possible and very easy for a student for company they can change there algorithms every week
    point no.4
    millions are earned by bussiness people they are clever and smart and they got the resources they utilize the skilled people . Skilled people themselves can not earn that much because of lack of resources . so the offer to you to prove has a catch you dont have enough resources.

  47. Ken Hubert

    Yes I agree with Captain Truth, online poker is designed or programmed to excite the players and the audience. It is rigged or fashioned so. It is a big time and big profit entertainment business.

    Imagine any game that would go on and on – BORING and thus a big “entertainment” loser. So, you limit the amount of money a player starts with. Then, you increase the amount of the blinds to the point where it creates action by a player regardless of the down cards. You have a play by play, so to speak, to excite the TV audience. And you do it all in a classy place. I suspect that it’s a very profitable business. Perhaps a passing fad. But, in the meantime…

    Online poker for real money should be outlawed because it’s giving the business a bad rap. Free online poker sites gives a person basic training and experience. It also provides a continuous supply of tournament players.


  48. brian elizardo

    listen up u fkn donkeys online poker is not rigged
    heres a couple reasons to prove it.

    1.u fkn so called great players play fkn donkey limits with 80 percent of the players being nothing but complete morons. they call when they should raise,raise when they should fold, and fold when they should raise. its notthe site its the competition

    2.play a $5/10 or higher game and see the difference 70% of the hands dont go past the flop. and if a
    donkey plays these limits he will go broke pure an simple.

    3.you are not as good as u think u are ever since esp fucking n and the travel channel everyone fkn thinks there a great fkn poker player. your obviously not becuase its the same fkn excuses over and over again i lost when i flopped the nuts i lost with quads i lost with ace high flush wah wah wah.

    4.any real poker player well tell you this its not the cards you fkn morons its u your predictable people know how u play and dont give a rats ass what u have i know i dont if i have a type of hand that can crack aces im gonna fkn call your 20xbb raise every fkn time to bust u for all your chips.

    5.us real poker players play the fish(YOU) not the cards so quit whining take online poker low limit games for what there worth entertainment u cant make a living playing 5 cent 10 cent or even 50/$1 eventually the biggest bankroll comes out on top or for the real low games u cant beat the rake so shut the F#ck up cause ill kick your ass online as well as live i do great at both.

    Thank you
    Brian Elizardo
    from massachussetts
    come play me at foxwoods and ill take your pocket aces and take your whole bankroll in the process

  49. badbeats

    Last night my wife wanted to learn to play poker. She’s never played before and so I was excited to deal the cards. We played heads up. In the first 10 hands I was dealt pocket kings. I bet.

    According to my advice she called with a suited ace and we saw a flop. The flop came down 2d 4d Kd. She bet and I raised and she re-raised and I called. I figured she hit the flush and I was in trouble. I’d taught her how to play like 5 minutes earlier so I had a good idea what she held.

    The turn came 4c. She bet huge and I re-raised her all in. She called right away and I told her that she had really bad luck when she flipped Ad 3d because a nut flush is an amazing hand but I caught a full house.

    The river was the 5d. She won with a miracle straight flush in her first ten hands of playing poker against my kings full.

    I took that deck of cards and tore them in half and burned them because clearly that deck was rigged.


    In any small sample (and even theoretically in a bigger sample) the results can be terribly skewed. Most of our sample sizes are statistically insignificant. Don’t forget statistics class, if you flip a coin 5 times, there’s the same likelihood that it will land exactly HTHTH as HHHHH as THTHT. It seems like most of the poker site conspiracy theorists would say that if it didn’t come HTHTH or THTHT the first 5 throws that the coin must be rigged. If you flipped it 1000 times and it didn’t come heads between 450 and 550 times I might be suspect, but I can’t expect it to be 500 heads and 500 tails. Maybe one million flips would be very close to 50-50.

    Our memory is even more statistically insignificant since we seem to only remember the bad hands. I swear just last night I won with pocket aces 3 times. I can’t remember any of the specifics, but I can tell you almost the exact bet sizes and suits of each card on the one hand where I lost with aces.

    I think big Phil from Pokerstars lays down an excellent challenge. I love a good dare. Someone do it, blow this whole thing wide open. There’s a lot of money to be had for the guy who does. Good luck with that.

    I’d rather play poker.

  50. jim

    WOW! Brain
    GREAT POST, Now with all that said.
    GROW UP!
    Do you think everyone who plays poker, plays for a living.
    You are right when you say you can’t make a living playing .05 and .10 poker
    But you can make a few bucks.
    The fact that you play high limit poker will give you bigger wins. But a win is a win. If it a dollar or ten.
    Any way I still stand on my ground and that is to say these sites are controling outcome of hands.
    And yes badbeats, Badbeats are part of the game. However I am not taking about a bad beat happening. I telling you when they will happen.

  51. brian murphy

    brian, im laverton on poker stars, know alls like you are a dime a dozen, get you hand off it, it will fall off,

  52. Dan Irish

    What a FARCE. This knucklehead who CLAIMS to be “Joker Stars” support says it’s “impossible” for them to be rigged. What does he provide as proof??? MuMBO JUMBO.

    Bottom line, ALL online poker sites should be WILLING and in face PRO ACTIVE in having their sites put under the EXACT SAME rigorous control as Vegas casinos. NOT ONE of them have!

    There are sites that have BOTS in games!!!

    This writer would have you believe he’s telling you the truth because he SAID so!! WHat a JOKE!!!

    Here’s a question I have for these APOLOGISTS for online sites. Why do you have to keep answering the question??? Funny thing is, one does NOT hear REPEATED accusations that Vegas is rigged.

  53. Dan Irish

    Oh and I’m AB SO LUTE LY certain the “hand history” Philip A purports to make available is 100 PERCENT accurate! LMAO!!!! Can you imagine REAL gaming industries to offer THAT as PROOF??? “Well yes Mr. Inspector, it’s LEGIT, I SAID it was!!!” I’ll even give you the proof we keep.” ROTFLMAO!!!!!

    Bottom line folks don’t EVER deposit YOUR money on the online poker sites until they are held to the EXACT same standards as Nevada or Atlantic City.

  54. marc

    isn’t potripper the guy who was a cheating absolute poker employee? and he posted here saying it wasn’t rigged and he’s won a million?! har.

  55. jim

    Yes Marc, That is correct. However I think the post was placed by someone else to make a point, And not by POTRIPPER.

  56. hohoho

    for the last year and a half I have been playing a lot of poker online on various sites. Though I was a relative beginner, I now have a lot of experience in most variants of the game. I analyse all hand hisories using odds calculators like twodimes.net.
    I only play micro stakes, and am a winning player (for what it is worth) at cash, sngs, and touneys. It strikes me that these “rngs” are rake-hungry monsters: even if there is only one action card possible as a turn, it almost inevitably comes.
    I love poker, and manage to navigate these improbable mathematical minefields for a profit, but I feel like a mug for giving these businesses my money in rake.
    micro stakes, at the very least, are definitely rigged on Full Tilt, Poker stars, Pokerroom, and 888.

    All the best

  57. jim

    navigate these improbable mathematical minefields WELL SAID HOHO

  58. brian

    hahaahahaha murphy your a fkn idiot try making sense you micro dork i look for u on stars never seen u probably play micro cash games not worth my time loser i dont play for penniesi play for hundreds of course micro limits are rigged how else they gonnamake money off u idiots if not itjust be 6 people at one table waiting for the nuts everyhand with a maniac in it for the fun of it here’s the real scoop kiddies and donkeys when u decide to play yournext cash game in the wonderful world of micro limit trying getting everyone at the table to talk u ll get 1 maybe 2 at the most why u ask because morons these so called horrendous beats there happening against robots who play for the site your rake is worth sht to pokerstars so they put robots into the games to take your money. dont beleaveme try it next time u play say unless every one say im a flat hippie with no sack im not puttingmy on this table if u dont get all six or all 9 players to say it and all theysay is hi then there bots i wont play any game online unles i can atleast have a conversation with all six players. WOW BRIAN YOUR PARANOID am I am I really think about these fkn sht hole bumbs are regulated in madagascar peru or some other fkd up country they can do whatever the hell they want. BRIAN OMG YOUR A FKN IDIOT yeah ok im an idiot just try it make everyone at the table say something stupid i gurantee u ull only get one or 2 people that will so if u wanna play 2 humans and 3 bots who will turn over nothing but winning hands every time they play then go for it but i sure as hell wont.I put 2K a month up for online poker i play nothing lower 10/20 limit see the pots in this game get big so they dont have to use bots to make money or rig the deck to get there rake. WOW BRIAN IM SRY I CALLED YOU ALL THOSE THINGS YOU ARE A GENIOUS. yes I am arnt I u fools never looked at it that way did u now its starting to make sense aint it maybe im not such an asshole am I.
    Thank you, I am the smartest Man alive lol JK

  59. geoff

    THis is a email i sent to JOker stars and Ultimate bet after the bs that happened to me. im still waiting on response ill print that as soon as i get it.

    why do u feel the need to cheat hardworking people outta there money? what kinda scumbags are u people? why is it the same bull &^%&^% every time? why have u already been caught for cheating and want to tell me im wrong u ^%^%$ (*&&^ dont cheat please one of your own employees cheating the site. %&^%$ u rigged piece of &$^%$ uve taken my money for the last time. what a shocker though cant say i didnt see it comming as usual get my money in a 95 percent fav and oh my god what a surprise the 2 outter hits unbelievable what a miracle yeah it would be if i t doesent happen every time u put a huge amount of money into themiddle. Letme guess ^%$&^% joke bet.com i was up against a robot that works for one of your sites wasnt I. its ok u can tell me i know the truth u &$^%$ rig the random nuber generator why when u make &^%&^ billions of dollars a year anyway makes no fkn sense if you ask me but u assholes do it anyway. i mean if it wasnt true why are there so many complaints from legit players. I win on a regular bases when i play live and im playing 10/20 limit and 25/50 nl. but yet when i play 1/2nl or 3/6nl or even 10/20 limit online the same bull ^%$&^% always happens to me? Why I ask why? is it me am i not that good a player are the people that play 1/2 nl online really better than the people i play 25/50 with live are u %$#$@ nuts no its you assholes you fkn retards for one dont burn cards which *&^*& the whole game up 2 begin with second u have robots playing on table and u know thats &^%^% up but your greedy ass mother %$^%$ so you dont care. some how your random number generator is not random at all. i know your gonna send e so bull shit response i know that already but how about this send me something original this time explaing to me why i can win at 25/50 nl casino poker but cant beat 1/2 nl poker online i cant wait to hear that one

    In closing You ^%$&&^ are not getting anymore money off of me i have told all my credit card companies to reject all charges to online gambling i have also put a block on any money being sent from me from western union or money gram outside the united states i have finally learned my lesson it took me 3 years alot of bull shit and almost 30 grand to learn the lesson but lesson well learned u assholes are fkn crooks and cant wait for internet poker to become legal in the united states so that you %$^%$ suckers well have to deal with the gaming commission and then well find out the truth once and for all i hope they legalize it then bam the GC is all over you mother (*&)(* like nothing id pay another 30 grand just to see that you idiots $#@$% up a good thing instead of being greedy and wanting more u should of just ran a legit game took the rake that was rightfully yours and never put robots in or cheated the players. So ^%$&^% you go to hell i cant wait for the day u mother &^%&^%* ^%$&%^$ are stopped

    Thank you
    Geoff $%^&*

  60. geoff

    heres the reply from pokerstars lol its a good one

    We will be happy to address your concerns if you write to us in a
    courteous manner, without the use of foul language.

    PokerStars Support Team

    Lol these mother fkn scubags cheat me outta 30 K and want to be courteous fuck them. theres your proof people Yuliya is the name sry btch but if your name in jen or somethng i can understand then u can go fuck yourself courteous these fkn scumbags gotta lot of balls

  61. jim

    At least Brian now claims some parts of online poker is RIGGED.
    If even one small part of any online site is rigged it is one part to many.
    People who play micro are putting money up just as well as players who play higher limits.
    They should receive a hornest deal and not a rigged deal. Maybe one day the USA will open up to online poker and players will get a fair deal. But as for now all I see is rigged or controled play. No way in hell are these sites dealing ramdom cards. And if they are it is your hold cards ONLY.
    If I could give proof to this I would. All I can give you is my word as to what I see happening on poker stars. And I will stand by it 100 percent. It is up to you to take it or leave it. I will also add yes I have won and cashout winnings but I still stand by what I say. Because I have won money dosn’t make these sites hornest. Do you think they did not understand they need to let you win one in awhile.

  62. brian

    Ill say this online poker is weird i barely play online anyore i still have 6k in my stars account that i havent touched in almost 4mos now idk it just doesent appeal to ma any more ive read so munch shit and theres just way way way to many bad players online.

    But here is a true fact about online poker and why its 50/50 that it could be rigged. one these robots that people are starting to talk about they may play for the site they may not. but the otherbig factor guys is this a wise wise man told me this would u really put $300-$1000 in the iddle of a pot when u cant see the guys face? Hell NO Fuck that i have a system for online poker and doesent require me spending more then 20-100 bucks a session now what i easily can afford. I now mostly am i live cash game player, mostly at foxwoods and atlantic city but did enjoy vegas a couple weeks ago what a difference the style of play is out there compared to up here.

    And secondly guys holdem is not the most popular game in te world for nothing theres a reason behind it
    Lets say for ex you at a 9 person table playing .25/.50
    Nl A stupid game to be playing but still playing it none the less. Ok this is only assuming you are a intelligent player with atleast 1+ years experience in casino poker or 6mos experience in a $5/10 Nl game or higher the rest of u are just donkeys. if u havent played $5/10 online nl or $2/5 nl and won on aregular basis u are a fish and this saple does not pertain to u. But put me in a game of micro limit poker i have a 2/1 edge on the game because in a game like that im not even gonna look at my cards half the time.3 rounds ill have the table read perfectly so wont most good players. now after watching the table i notice maybe 2 of my 8 opponets i have 2 watch out for the rest our dead money, so heres the math 25% of the players are decent players the other 75 percent out complete morons. sounds like a good table. Hell no that is a god awful table u give yourself a 2/1 edgeon the game and are at a 3/1 disadvantage to complete morons who will rely on 98% percent luck. Now if the cards come right then say hello to your car payment for the month but if they come wrong then your screwed i dont care how good u are u cant beat a hitparade of non stop flushes, str8s, sets runner runner bs, two outtes and all that bologna we have come to know as bad beats. See this is why we beleave online poker is rigged because in holdem your advantage is not as big as u think no matter how good u are when the little fish are catching all day for 4 hours str8 theres nothing u can do but say bye bye to your money. but in the long run online or live thegood players with that edge will win it all back. perfect exaple one guybustede up good for a night on pokerstars at .50/1 nl game took about 1400 off me. called me a donk a fish this this and that next day like thefish he was, sees me sitting at a $25/50 game Nl game way over his br and i knew it becuase he bought in for a little over 3k while i was sitting with $8K with plent more in reserves if needed i kicked his ass so bad he lasted 15 minutes in the game thats it,3k gone in 15 minutes, his whole br gone in 15 minutes. in his 50/1.00 game he had 30 strong buy ins good BR management but in this game he had one very very small buy in 3k his whole BR was 60 BB’s thats it. he was competing with guys who had over 200-300 BB’s or could atleast aford that munch.

    So in closing guys Online poker May or May not be rigged I agree some of the way hands go down is really suspect. But its also alot to do with the players. heres some reasons which i will not degrade any one

    1. Still alot of u think your better than u actualy are

    2.most of you have really really bad Br management

    3.You dont know how to select a game(Most online games are not very good odds in your favor)

    4.some of u guys play way over your head.

    5.holdem micro limit is 70/20 in favor of luck not skill so i dont care how good u are your still taking a risk playing these limits

    6.There’s a right way and a wrong way to play online most of you are playing it wrong. theres 2 ways an online player makes his money and your gonna have to figure it out just as i did

    and last but not least alot of u need coachs or atleast some one to teach you the proper ways to play the game when and how 2 bet,semi bluff, bluff, and read your opponetsby taking really good notes.

    So I hope this makes up for My asshole post but i stand by that one as well. Do with this knowledge what you will but i am a very good player and have been making atleast 2500 a month playing poker for the past 3 years str8. ive had 6 losing months in those 3 years thats it so i hope this helps and im always around for advice i check this post daily so feel free to ask me any questions ud like.

    Good day

  63. jim

    As an engineer for Intel, I can tell you that the so called random number generator (RNG) is not truly random. It is a computer software program that has been structured to simply run like any other program.

    At Poker Stars, their RNG is powered by Sierra Software (rubbish), written some 8 or 9 years ago. It has merely been updated to run on the Internet. If you really want to get better at online poker, check out ebay, flea markets and garage sales. Find an old copy of any Sierra card game and just play with it. Pay attention to the patterns and sequences as you play, take notes on how the cards fall etc., pay attention to those little idiosyncrasies that catch your eye and your game should greatly improve!
    The above is a copy and pasted, I found this in a web site.
    Note the part where he states pay attention to the patterns and sequences.
    I can tell you for a fact there are patterns if you look for it you to will find them.


    This letter shows how the softwares are not totally randomn….

    From: Gary Serfas
    Subject: FW: Full Tilt Poker Support – Your Poker Inquiry (KMM5859988I19928L0KM)
    To: homesick74 at yahoo.com
    Date: Monday, May 19, 2008, 1:04 AM

    This is one of them. I’m trying to find the reply I sent to him and his response regarding his so called “variance”. Enjoy

    Gary Serfas

    > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:15:50 -0700
    > From: security at fulltiltpoker.com
    > To: garyserfas at hotmail.com
    > Subject: Full Tilt Poker Support – Your Poker Inquiry (KMM5859988I19928L0KM)
    > Hello Gary,
    > Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support.
    > I certainly understand how frustrating a bad run can be; I think as
    > serious poker players, we can all relate to cold cards, horrendous
    > coolers and the like.
    > I do wish to impress upon you that variance is not a bad thing in
    > poker–if there was no variance–that is, if the skillful players always
    > won at their expected rate, the lesser players would never play with
    > good players, such as yourself, on even ground. If you compare poker
    > with other games of skill, you will notice that in no other game do tens
    > of thousands of players make a living from the game. In chess, for
    > example, you will not find any poor players playing against expert
    > players for money on an even playing field.
    > I understand that this is hard to grasp when one is being run over by
    > seemingly lesser players, but variance allows the game to exist, and the
    > less expert players to continue playing and enjoying themselves–if a
    > poor player always lost, there would be no game (certainly no good game)
    > in existence. It is actually a blessing for winning players such as
    > yourself that occasionally, poor play is rewarded and good play is
    > punished. Be confident that if you continue to play well, the statistics
    > will take care of themselves and approach its theoretical mean. Keep
    > playing, and keep studying the game, and I know that you will succeed in
    > the long run.
    > If you would like to see further discussion on this topic, please visit
    > the following link written by Gigabet, a well known, successful online
    > poker player:
    > Gigabet link:
    > xhttp://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1825403&p
    > age=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1
    > On behalf of Full Tilt Poker, and as a fellow player, I wish you the
    > best of luck at the tables and hope to see you at the final table
    > someday.
    > Regards,
    > Sunny
    > Poker Specialist
    > Full Tilt Poker Support
    > ———————————————————————-
    > Please remember never to give out your password or enter
    > account details over the Internet. Full Tilt Poker staff will
    > never ask you for your password. For your security, always
    > keep this information a secret.
    > Learn, Chat, and Play with the Pros at Full Tilt Poker
    > ———————————————————————-
    > Original Message Follows:
    > ————————
    > I feel that the most fradulent thing on this site is the site itself.
    > There is no possible way that poor players should be winning with the
    > hands that they are playing with. The good players are being punished
    > for their good play. Hands cannot consistently be dealt the way that
    > they are. There are far to money good hand possibilities dealt into each
    > hand. 3 Aces cannot be beat by a player who stays in a hand with the
    > other Ace only to have4 suited cards dealt that match up with the other
    > whole card of the poor player. This is only one example of the many
    > rediculous scenarios the myself and other players are witnessing on a
    > daily bases. A site that consistantly rewards poor play is a site that I
    > donnot want to have anything to do with and if this type of play
    > conyinues I will do everything that I can in ever chat room that I can
    > to proclaim my feelings and I’m sure that many others will join in my
    > concerns. Sites like yours and all of the other poker sites on the net
    > that continue to support and reward terrible players will find
    > themselves left with all of the donkeys that are playing on your sites.
    > Perhaps that is your intentions because these players are to stupid to
    > realize what is going on around them. I know a great number of online
    > players both friends and collegues thatare very close to quitting
    > playing online period, due to the constant frustration caused by the
    > poor players constant rewarding for their redicdulous play and reward.
    > Smarten up and look after your players on your site that know whats
    > going on and are very disappointed and frustrated with the constant bad
    > beats and the hands that are being dealt. How about becoming the first
    > site that truly deals the cards the way they are dealt in live play. You
    > will become the biggest site on-line and have a very loyal player base
    > with which to grow your clients on.


  65. jsheppard

    Everone that says online poker is not rigged used to use the reason that these sites would not do that because they alredy make enough money,well did any of you read about absolute poker,and ultimate bet(they are owned by the same people)they have both now been caught commiting insider cheating,google cheating at ultimate bet.Did the fact that they alredy make alot of money stop them from cheating,NO IT DIDNT>has your boss ever came to you and said ok folks take a break we have alredy made enough money today,i doubt it,as for the pros would you bite the hand that feeds you,i doubt that aswell,play for fun.

  66. jsheppard

    POtstripper,we know you made lots of cash, by CHEATING,you fucking basterd.

  67. bod

    lets face it guys we are gonna be lucky to prove it as it seems like they have got theres backs covered,but we all know and although its annoying unless a governing body actually investigates the matter then it is always going to happen.why hasnt a governing body intervened? because they are like every politician in this country,being paid not to.its the way of the world at the moment.remember back to the future 2 where he came back to a totally corrupt world? well until we find the deloriom and go back and change time for the better then thats what we are stuck with! marty mcfly where are you?

  68. subjectposit

    I received an email very similar to the one above from pokerstars.com after i had made a comparable complaint against the randomness of their shuffle. To date, approximately 1 year later, i have not received the hand histories i was promised. i have contacted them several times and have heard nothing in return. My issue had absolutely nothing to do with taking bad beats. What i had noticed was that in some of the low-end sit-and-go tourneys there were certain scenarios recurring at decisive moments that appeared to me to defy the odds. i did a little tracking of my own – however not on a scale sufficient for statistical proof – which confirmed my suspicion. My theory, for which i would relish the opportunity to test against pokerstars’ “bluff,” is that the logarithm offered up by the site to its auditors is not being applied across the range of its games. Whilst I am sure it is being employed at its high-end tables, where the possibility of detection is much higher, along with the stakes involved for all parties, i do believe that it takes liberties with its lower stakes tables and tourneys, where the potential for detection is very unlikely. Particularly, i believe that the low-stakes sit-and-gos and tourneys are rigged in order to regulate their average run-times. I ask anyone to simply check the data on these run-times and to ask themselves: “Could such invariance ever be accounted for statistically?”

  69. brian o

    could any one tell me how a poker site can guarantee a tournament to be over in an hour? william hill have such tournament and the idea is that the blinds go up really severely,but surely they still can not guarantee it to end in an hour? i know its a very,very unlikely scenario but what if every player on the table took there full alloted time to play their hand on every hand played and the pots got split every go. ok thats never going to happen but thats not to say it cant happen and certainly not for a site to GUARANTEE it wont happen.also if anyone finds a site that still plays fair two weeks after the usual rubbish of giving you great hands and making you look like a poker god to draw us in(cmon how stupid do these people think we are?) then please tell me. till then im playing REAL poker live.

  70. Pro Vadis

    The trick is when you are playing online poker hour after hour day after day, the human being gets a gut feeling of things. In SNG’s you KNOW by the size of your stack whats going to happen. YOU CAN FEEL IT! ITS UNDENIABLE. The last straw for me when i was at party poker, losing about $8000 in cash games and i had $400 at the table. Someone went ALL IN and there i was with my AA. He had AK. And the flop was Q J 10. He won. And that was after losing time and time again. That was beyond belief. I rang and demanded my account be closed. It was.
    All online poker sites are rigged. ALL OF THEM. I dont play at them any more.
    I have since settled down and have denuded myself of the ‘want to kill!’ (Those malfeasant greedy scumbags).

  71. Robert

    I agree. I won $900 from Pacific Poker back in August. Went to play it only today and lost it all in 15 mins. Lost 99 to 10 10, then 55 to 66 then AA to two pair.

    This is not a coincidence. this has systematically happened to me numerous times in the last two years. As soon as you win, you then proceed to lose it all. The players that you see always winning are planted there falsely by the site, and I have played on many sites. It is like any other gambling or get rich quick idea. You get sucked in and then lose everything. I am just so foolish for taking so long to realise. Take my advice….stick to golf or tetris!

  72. Jakob

    Not all sites i rigged i thinck. But some is. Iv played poker for 6-7 years or so and online there is more bad beats then… laughing*. Stay away from it. Play offline…

  73. jim

    The fact is all sites are controling the play. I don’t care which one you play at, it most likely is fixed. I went against my word and made 3 more small deposits in poker stars. The following is what took place. As you read please note I know alot about the program as what to play and who too play. However I still can’t aviod all of the traps within the program.
    My first deposit I came over my deposit a few dollars and cashed out. ( 37.50) I did learn more about the program traps as well so that helped when I made my second $25.00 deposit.
    After making the second deposit of $25.00 I cashed out $370.00. I played tight and avoided both the chip leaders as well as short stacks. I folded a lot of big first rank hands to include pocket ACES. Yes Folded Pocket Aces pre flop. The reason being a raise from a short stack or the chip leader and it paid off. I hit the final table in two tourneys finishing third in one and fourth in a second. Both Buy ins were $2.00.
    Now about my third deposit, I made this deposit 3 weeks ago. I have made 336 fpp’s on this deposit. I just cashed out $32.00. I played a lot of double or nothings $1.00 buy ins. So you can see I did a lot of winning on these tables. Now the only way I could have done that was to play THE PROGRAM and not poker as you and I know it.
    I can tell you if you go on these sites and play the way you would in a casino all you will do is bust out and re-deposit when you do go bust. Even knowing as much as I do about this bullshit program It is still hard to win any large money.
    If I would have won the hands i should have that being without the program deciding the outcome, I sure would have cashed out a hell of a lot more money then I have to date. Funny thing is my total winning since I have been play comes to almost 4K, And that sucks when you see how much you won and only cashed out a few hundred.
    The reason I only cashed out so little is because they also control your bank roll. This being they will only let you get so high above your desposit, Then you lose to go back below the deposit. On my last deposit I got up to $42.00 as a high and $4.00 as a low. It is nothing more then a rollercoaster ride. Up and down for over 21 days and logging in a lot of hours. Dropping a few cents at a time into their bank accounts. Now times that by thousands of players doing the same thing.
    I will be back to add to this post at a lated date as I need to go now. Before I go let me just say If you play you will pay. If you play to the odds and rules of poker, PLAY THE PROGRAM this will improve your odds to win.
    PS FAIR I DON’T THINK SO. Who calls stacking the deck fair other then the stacker.

  74. Connie

    All you have to do is play online poker for 7 or 8 years like I have and you know it s not random cards. The pattern is if you win 2 or 3 tournaments you sure as hell are going to lose for a long while until they put you back on the win list again, then you will win 2 or 3, then repeat, over and over again. If you get a royal flush on Pokerstars, you re not going to win for a month It s referred to as the Royal Flush Curse by players who know. The same cards play over and over again. You can predict what card combinations that are going to win but it won’t do you any good if you re in lose mode. If you are in win mode, you win with 2 /7 or anything for that matter and if you are in the lose mode you will lose no matter how good your cards are. I have been accused by players as being a Pokerstars employee when I was on one of Pokerstars super hot streak beating everyone with one bad beat after another. Other times I have been accused of not being able to play when I have been on a super bad streak. Whatever.

    It just amazes me that more can t see through these sites. The first time I looked on the interenet,, 7 years ago, no one believed they were bogas, but now, finally, I see tons of sites and players that believe what I have said all along.

    I would love to find one, just one site that dealt cards at random and not some video game.

  75. jim

    The same cards play over and over again. You can predict what card combinations that are going to win but it won’t do you any good if you re in lose mode. If you are in win mode, you win with 2 /7 or anything for that matter and if you are in the lose mode you will lose no matter how good your cards are.
    Well said Connie
    She is 100% correct in what she is saying. Even if you pick up on the program you will still lose if they want you to lose the hand. The cards will hit based on your hand and your opponents hand. AND NOT RANDOM
    The fact is they have taking both the luck and skill factor out of play. So you are screwed all togetter.
    They may have been thinking doing this is a fair way for weak and strong players to win, However if this is the case, it is unfair. To set the play based on anything is to rig and if the game is rigged why play. Would you go to a Casino if you knew the dealer was stacking the deck?

  76. tim

    you guys are dumb… i play every week at a home game and i’ve seen a straight flush beat four of a kind on the river. i myself have hit two straight flushes at the dog track for jackpots the same day!! and i’ve cashed out over 4000 online. you guys just have bad luck maybe you shouldn’t gamble!! the reason you see more bad beats is online you see way more hands.

  77. chris

    these sites are Bull shit. Plain and simple. I’ve played at all the top sites for over two and half years. Only to take bad beat after bad beat. Sick and tired of theses scamming son of a bitches. Every time i see a advertisement of one of theses sites on t.v. i wanna puke. Half these sites get there gaming commission’s from reservations in Canada. I live in Canada. Half the time these reservations are getting busted for huge amounts of illegal drugs and weapons. yet they can commission a online gambling site. We are the biggest fools ever. Just dumping are money like cows to the slaughter. I played at party poker for two years then after horrible bad beat i started talking about there bs site to other players and the closed my account and stopped emailing me. Poker stars is a riot. if you don’t have the nuts mise well kiss your money goodbye. how many three outers and runner runners do you have to see before it forgone conclusion. How are we letting theses sites off the hook. Selling pipe dreams. robbing us blind. Paying good live game players to act as if there legit to induce more people to dump money. I watched poker after dark with three pro live players and three online cash game winners. what a joke the online players were. How do they even win online cause they are picked and promoted to save a glimmer of hope that these sites are legit. sad how fuked up this world has become. Everybody looking to scam everybody. for over ten years these sites have operated with impunity from the law. Its time we all stopped crying about it and do something. its about time we got the ball rolling and get some legal entity looking into theses sites. tired of being fuked over by scam artist. Its about time the average joe starts doing the fuking.

  78. Statistics Phd

    Most of you are missing the point here. As the letter states, given a sufficiently large sample of hands, you can extrapolate with a high degree of precision whether or not the sample is a random. Trust the math. You can easily see if data has been fudged. The distribution curve will be skewed in some way if the sample is anything but random.

    If you don’t understand the above elementary statistical principle then I’ll gladly see you at the tables – your money would be a welcome addition to my stack!

    What I find more worrying is the fact that employees have access to ALL hand histories.

  79. Philly Dave

    Lots of good ideas here…

    IMO…it comes down to a few basic ideas

    the poker sites defend their RNG, validity of hands played and general game security in a few broad responses, none of which stand up to scrutiny, but these are as follows

    1) we are “audited by independent companies”

    A) please bear in mind the current world financial meltdown was caused
    in large part be the “independent companies” who were empowered to
    certify the value of bond and mortgage bundles. They grossly misled
    investors. The same dynamic applies here. The site is paying the
    agencies directly so an automatic conflict of interest arises. At a
    minimum this should arouse suspicion. Another thought is who is
    vouching for the auditors? Further, what is to say that the software
    that is being audited is the one they use. The Absolute/Ultimate
    scandal arose from a breach in security related to ONE line of code
    being added to allow seeing hole cards and creating a “superuser id”.
    Do you suppose they could add one line of code after the auditors
    finish? of course they could. They are all code and internet technicians.

    2) Why would these companies risk their brand status and public perception
    of tustoworthiness, when they are already making so much money?

    A) In all business models there is what is known as the “exit strategy”
    it is actually the first thing you plan for BEFORE you ever open your
    doors, site etc. What is the end game? In this business model lets
    give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they wanted
    acceptence in the U.S marketplace leading to several large stock
    IPO’s. Going public is where the real big money is in this deal. Early
    on I think they realized that would never get approval and now its a
    multi-billion dollar cash grab

    This is assumimg they they were initially out to run a straight
    business and got lost on the way, which is a huge assumption.
    Occams ( var.) Razor, a point of logic states that the most obvious
    reason or answer is most likely true. That being said , it seems
    pretty clear that greed is clearly a reasonable answer to the
    question of why thes site would “risk” their “reputations” by
    cheating. Especially considering the business model is finite.

    3) Bad Play in connection with “statistical variance” coupled to the huge
    number of hands and high number of bad beats, strange hands and exotic
    outcomes all add up to answer your complaint of ” Am I being cheated?”

    Every sites replies more or less to all complaints of collusion, or the RNG
    or BOT play or card rigging in this general manner as far as I can see.

    There are lots of different points to address here but firstly remember one
    thing.There are literally ZERO complaints of cheating and card rigging at
    brick & mortar casinos while under under the supervision of the host and
    Gaming commision. When was the last time you saw a group of irate
    card players at the Bellagio, or Borgata card rooms screaming that the
    game is somehow rigged? Never. Now private side games in rented
    facitlites at various casinos are more dubious. This year for instance there
    was a complex cheating scam involving high-tech gear and and a world
    famous gaming and poker security “expert” and consultant that were
    fleecing high rollers at the Borgata during that last WPT tournamant in
    these side games. Again remember NOT under the supervision of the
    Casino’s and Gaming commision.

    Statistical variance is harder to pin down and is the Poker sites best friend
    in explaining lots of what players complain about. The “gut” feeling and
    suckouts. Juicy exotic starting hands and flops crazy outcomes. Not once
    but with regularity. the same hand/flop several times in a row. All
    occurences online. Unfortunatley it is impossible to really determine a
    statistical anomoly with only the data the the sites are willing to provide.
    One would need millions of hands, all the hands played, folded, won lost
    over a long period of time and a true cross section of all levels of play, all
    types of games, reall money and play money ( they should be the same)

    The big Absolute/Ultimate case was brought to light with the anomolies
    detected in one tourney, but ALL the hands were available to view, inclu=
    -ding hole cards and folded hands. This complete set of data is almost
    never available. If you detected that there had occured, say 3 or 4 more
    flushes in a tounament that had, say 10,000 hands played, that would
    constitiute a HUGE anomoly. You would not be able to detect this fact
    without complete hand data for the entire tourney. For a couple of
    reasons they are not in the habit of giving this data out to the public. I
    think if they did though, the argument would be over. Even with that data
    it would still be difficult to prove wrongdoing…therein lies the rub.In
    Theory ANYTHING can happen at anytime. However it does not really
    take a genius to note that getting the same hand several time in a row
    on several occasions (regluarly) is EXTREMELY anomolous. If you win
    in a live casino and lose online that is a small scale anomoly worth
    pondering. Why? There are huge blogs filled with personal stories and
    long term subjective experiences related here and other site worth
    considering. In short there is almost universal anectdotal evidence
    that the sites use “juice” or ” action” hands to stimulate user for maximum
    entertainment and furthe thatn there is a common believe that the sites
    cold be skimming prize pools in a variety of ways as well as tweeking
    cash game play in ways that increas rakes or outright cheating with
    shills that can see hole cards or bots. ALL VERY POSSIBLE SCENARIOS!

    Bad play is rampant and complicates the matter but I think it help confuse
    the issue to the advantage of the sites ( assuming the ARE cheating) to
    such a great extent ( calling down with crazy weak hands and making the
    on 4th or the river is one example) that is should be put aside to a great
    extent because we can get wmired in a cirular argument wch never returns
    to the root question


    IMO the short answer is yes.

    I hate this answer because it means that my dream of being a stay at
    home “Pajama Poker Pr” is evaporating along with so many others

    the sites are designed to create “juicy” exotic play that allows alot of bad players to succeed, at least in the short run, to get “sucked in” bringing in huge amounts of money. A certain number of players are allowed to win primarily through computer assist and the sites use shills or bots ( most likely shills) to play into the money thereby reducing the total payouts. It could greatly enhance the income of the sites in questions. usually without
    raising to many eyebrows ( until lately) Not first place…think 3rd place in a $50K Gaurantee. Pretty decent payout . Multiply that by all the touneys, SNG etc all day…everyday of the year…the figure could possibly exceed their “legitmate” or stated income. Which i beleive they do not publish . No annual corporate statements or financial disclures from these
    sites to my knowlegde.

    so my opinion is that the 1% doctrine applies here. If there is a 1% chance that these sorts of things are going on them I must assume they are in fact true. I think there is clear and continuing evidence , as well as abundant reason and opportunioty to defraud that it must be so

    Just for kicks try watching Patrik Antoius and Phil Ivey ( among others)play real high stakes poker ( HENL $500-$1000) and observe the cards, then go and look at a lesser game, say a $25-$50 and comp;are the action…it is a startling difference and obvious “somethig is up” woyuld you cheat Phil Ivey?

    Further, poker is so hard to win at with consistency that most poker pro’s rely on commercial arrangments with sites, magazine, blogs apparel people and tv, in fact i expect its their bread and butter income so do not count on them to tell you the truth. they don’t want to know….just show me the money…right?

    Anyway I gues i will have to put some clothes on and go to the Casino if i want to play REAL Cards

    Good Luck and keep Bloggin…hope to get some reasonable replies or comments

    Philly Dave

  80. jim

    (In the last two weeks) This is the second time this happen to me with pocket tens vs Ace Jack.
    RUNER RUNER ACES. A few hands later quad Queens take me out. This is one of the traps you can not aviod. Bad beat NO! A program set to take you out.

    Seat 4: SJAC07 (2111 in chips)
    Seat 5: pin_key_33 (2635 in chips)
    Seat 6: boutelsworth (1948 in chips)
    Seat 7: axestone (1810 iPokerStars Game #22521147461: Tournament #124136680, $3.00+$0.25 Hold’em No Limit – Level IV (50/100) – 2008/12/01 2:52:36 ET
    Table ‘124136680 2’ 9-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: rockweasel72 (2050 in chips)
    Seat 3: waveydude (2755 in chips) n chips)
    Seat 8: Marasg89 (1268 in chips)
    Seat 9: pittbulljim (2843 in chips)
    SJAC07: posts small blind 50
    pin_key_33: posts big blind 100
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to pittbulljim [Tc Th]
    boutelsworth: raises 125 to 225
    axestone: folds
    Marasg89: folds
    pittbulljim: calls 225
    rockweasel72: calls 225
    waveydude: calls 225
    SJAC07: folds
    pin_key_33: calls 125
    *** FLOP *** [Js Jd Ts]
    pin_key_33: checks
    boutelsworth: bets 375
    pittbulljim: raises 375 to 750
    rockweasel72: folds
    waveydude: folds
    pin_key_33: folds
    boutelsworth: raises 973 to 1723 and is all-in
    pittbulljim: calls 973
    boutelsworth said, “ahh”
    *** TURN *** [Js Jd Ts] [As]
    *** RIVER *** [Js Jd Ts As] [Ac]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    boutelsworth: shows [Jh Ad] (a full house, Aces full of Jacks)
    pittbulljim: shows [Tc Th] (a full house, Tens full of Aces)
    boutelsworth collected 4621 from pot
    boutelsworth said, “ZING”
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 4621 | Rake 0
    Board [Js Jd Ts As Ac]
    Seat 1: rockweasel72 folded on the Flop
    Seat 3: waveydude (button) folded on the Flop
    Seat 4: SJAC07 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 5: pin_key_33 (big blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 6: boutelsworth showed [Jh Ad] and won (4621) with a full house, Aces full of Jacks
    Seat 7: axestone folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
    Seat 8: Marasg89 folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
    Seat 9: pittbulljim showed [Tc Th] and lost with a full house, Tens full of Ac

  81. Brad Reimer

    I have read lots of these blogs and most people are fond of relating their experiences – many of which, believe me, I share and agree with what these experiences are making them feel about online poker being rigged.

    However, anecdotal evidence doesn’t prove anything, and I think a more logical approach would be more helpful. By the way, I thought Philly Dave’s above posting was excellent.

    Just to satisfy those who want to hear about commonly shared experiences: I have seen all of the above in just a few months of playing online poker, and in several sites, primarily pokerroom, party, and PS. I started in pokerroom, and after a small deposit I won several hundred dollars playing micro stakes in just a few sessions. I would like to interject here that I was sadly addicted from the first big pot that I won — it was better than sex, better than drugs, or alcohol – better than ANYTHING. I thought “this is easy — I can pay off all my debts within a year at this rate”. And I won consistently for about two weeks, long enough that I felt that I could reasonably conclude that this was not coincidence, or just good luck, I must actually be good at this, I had just discovered a hidden talent. I then made a small cashout of $120, and immediately went on a hellish losing streak — mostly just bad cards, interspersed with good hole cards/shit flops at pokerroom — during which I pissed away about $1000 on re-deposits. I began to suspect and research rigging theories, and moved to PS (once again, artificial good luck at first, followed by the most ridiculous bad beats you can imagine), and later to Party (felt much better at first, like the cards were more reasonable than the other sites, and didn’t lose much money overall; but found my success to be very cyclical – deposit $50, get up to $70 or so, then slowly lose it all – repeatedly).

    I would also like to make this disclaimer to Brian above — yes, I know I am a fish, a donk, a moron, etc. etc. because I have no craft compared to a professional at his level. And I envy his skill in one sense; would love to be that good at anything in my life; and I pity him also, it must be an empty existence playing a game for a living; and I will not be disrespected either, by him or anyone else, just because I’m not good at a damn card game.

    But on to my original thought — a logical approach. Here’s what I think:

    – I read an entry on another blog where someone claimed to have a friend working at PS, and he asked this friend if the site was “rigged”. If we can believe his answer, it went something like this (quotes are mine, this is paraphrased) — “The site is definitely not rigged, but we are constanty tweaking the RNG to level the playing field, so that less skilled players can hold their won against better players, making it more fair for everyone. The hands that are dealt are pre-determined from a database of possible hands, but the way that they are dealt is random”.

    Well, if this information is anywhere near true or accurate, it is oxymoronic — first of all, if the hands are pre-engineered they aren’t really using a RNG at all, except maybe to choose a hand from an index of data-based hands. Secondly, he says it is not rigged, and then goes on to explain exactly how it IS rigged. Ludicrous.

    – Here is what I think is happening: The poker sites are run more as a video game than a casino-type gambling activity. The sites have huge and growing databases of possible hands that can be dealt, many of which are innocuous, but a certain percentage of which are engineered to cause increased betting levels in that hand by giving good hole cards and favorable flops to several players, but which control the most probable winner.

    Furthermore, I think that players are rated on one or more indices, for example 1. style of play 2. betting habits 3. win/lose history 4. How new they are to the site 5. deposit/cashout history (is there a pending cashout that can be canceled at the player’s option) 6. is there a deposit bonus nearing a payout etc. Then depending on how many players are sitting at a table, what are the stakes and game type, where the deal and blinds are, what are the ratings of the players at each position, and how many chips or how much money each one has, hands are chosen from the database of possible hands, a certain percentage of which are known to generate a favourable outcome (for the house) on a table in that configuration.

    The desired outcome may vary from one scenario to another, but the juiced action could have many beneficial effects for the site, including 1. producing a nice high pot in a ring game (with an optimal rake for the house) 2. Putting good players into a tilt state so that they will bet more (increased rake) and eventually lose and have to redeposit 3. eliminating SNG players more quickly to shorten the time of the tournament, and possibly in such a way that they will be frustrated or incensed into buying into another tournament right away 4. losing hands can bring winners bankrolls down, and winning hands can keep losers in business, so that the money just keeps sloshing back and forth between players accounts, being raked continuously, until, by and large, almost everyone has their roll dwindle and they have to redeposit eventually. 5. New players can be given artificial good luck to start the addiction process 6. Deposit bonuses can be clawed back from the players 7. Cashouts can be controlled and minimized, so that all the while, the money players have in “their” accounts are actually sitting in the pokers site’s bank account, earning interest, until it can be officially raked away from the players. And on and on it goes, these are just the things that come to my mind, and I’m a scientist, not particularly sagacious in the way of business.

    – It has been often suggested by opponents of the rigging theories that if the deals were not random, then anyone could easily prove that by running statistics on the hand histories. However, I don’t think this is true: If the hands dealt are being pre-engineered — to exert control over the outcome of the hand to the house’s benefit with well placed hole cards and lead swings, the cards dealt could still be balanced out in other hands so that no statistical anomalies would crop up at all — these sites are making piles of money, and can easily have teams of programmers and statisticians on staff to ensure that the hand histories would still appear perfectly random to a statistical analysis of variance. At least at the higher stakes levels. I have observed myself that the lower the stakes you play, the more hilarious the deals become.

    – It has been suggested (the Action Flop theory for example) that the RNG could still be intact, but a small amount of programming could be added so that randomly generated cards are burned until the “right” one comes up to juice the hand; I totally concur that this could be the mechanism used instead of the above “engineered hand data-base” theory; but with a limitless supply of money to hire programmers and IT people, why stop at a few hundred lines of code? I suggest that the real game code could be a massive array, such that if it were printed in 10-point courier, could cover a whole football field. Why not? And with no meaningful regulatory presence in the world of online poker compared to real casinos, no one will ever see the real code anyways.

    So there you have my $0.02.

    B. Reimer

  82. Brad Reimer

    After re-reading my above post, I wonder if I have been quite clear on a couple of points:

    – some of the opponents of the rigging theories question how it benefits the poker site to have one player win and another lose – the loser isn’t losing to the poker site, just to another player. Again, as I theorized above (and notwithstanding any possibility of “house bots” sitting at the tables winning money for the site): I believe their object is to just keep players’ deposited funds swilling back and forth, back and forth, from one account to another, where at 3% rake or 5% or whatever per real-money hand, it will very quickly end up completely in the site’s hands. While on average, almost everyone has to (and with gambling addiction being so ubiquitous and relentless, is compelled to) re-deposit to keep playing. This is how I believe the site makes most of their money.

    – And opponents of the rigging theories also pose the question: why would they bother, when they are already making so much money off the rake on honest games? First of all, I believe that by rigging the outcome of certain hands, they increase their profitability, probably by an order of magnitude or greater. But secondly, and much more importantly, I think that by far the most money deposited into the sites is from the repeat business of relatively new, lower stakes players who have been sucked in by the false success that they are offered initially, and the ongoing success they have with the hands engineered to assure this. I don’t think a truly honest game would be nearly as popular with players at any level. If the playing field were not leveled the sites would very quickly fill up with card sharks and above average hobbyists, at all stakes levels. Even if you could somehow attract beginners to the site, they would by and large lose their first deposit quickly, decide that online poker was a waste of money, and that would be the end of it. Without lots of fishies hanging around to reel in, the better players would also be less interested in playing.

    I know that in my own experience, if I had lost my first ever online poker deposit without experiencing initial success I would never have made a second deposit. In fact, if I had not heard of success stories from other friends who were also beginners, I can’t imagine that I would have ever even tried it out the first time. And in a fair game that was not rigged to allow me to win, I would have had no business winning hundreds of dollars in the first couple of weeks – remember I was a beginner, barely even knew the rules of Holdem poker.

    B. Reimer

  83. Brad Reimer

    And one more thing:

    – Opponents of the rigging theory also point out that in order for this to happen, an impossibly large number of people, all of whom stand to profit from spilling the beans to competitors or law enforcement bodies, would have to be complicit in a large criminal conspiracy, and that alone makes it so unlikely to be happening under all our noses without someone bringing it to light. However, I don’t see it that way…First of all is it really criminal? By whose definition and under the laws of what country? Gibraltar? Costa Rica? Isreal? Not only that, people working for the poker sites would only know about all the details of the game code on a need-to-know basis, and probably only a few at the very top would know everything that is going on. Also, people working their way up in the organization would be progressively indoctrinated into the corporate philosophy: “this is a video game, not a casino; we provide our patrons with hours of amusement for their money, just like golf courses or bowling alleys, or brick and mortar casinos, or movie theatres; so some weak people become addicted because of the way our product affects them, does that mean we are doing something wrong, or unethical, you might just as well say the same of companies that distill liquor or manufacture cigarettes. And just like any other activity that people spend money on for amusement, we are not holding a gun to their heads, they can cash out and stop playing any time they want…” etc. and etc. Not to mention, the information that people are privy to at various levels of the corporation would be considered within the organization as “trade secrets”, critical to the survival of the company in a competitive marketplace, and employees would sign non-competitive agreements and privacy agreements (just like the lab I work for, or any other company that possesses sensitive and proprietary information) . They would believe themselves to have an enforceable legal responsibility to protect the company’s trade secrets.

    There are two sides to every coin — I doubt that poker site employees that know about how the game works would think of it as “rigging” — they would just see it as the “parameters by which the game runs, which help the game to be more profitable for the company, but that is because the game is so much more fun this way, than regular randomly dealt poker, so people WANT to play more”.

    Thanks for letting me post my thoughts.

    B. Reimer

  84. BetterThanYOU

    Guess what…. The truth has been revealed so many times, its not funny.

    Ask your Poker rooms this question..

    Is the Variance programmed/controlled ? The answer is yes. Over the long haul, the math is correct, but the Variance is controlled via Good player/Bad player, to keep a more even playing field.

    The end.

  85. RoyalProdigy

    Online poker is one big scam. I’m not going to bring up hand histories or anything like that but i will say this you are supposed to see aces 1/220 hands. If you watch and everyhand is showed down you will see that someone has aces at least ten times out of 220 hands. They juice up the action for rake. They do. Deny it if you want, but its the truth. Countless sets up against the nut straight on the flop and they lose to the flush draw. I don’t know how they rig it, i just know that their is major flaws in the shuffle and deal. The AP scandal and then the UB scandal SHOULD be enough to make you quit but yet you want to live in a fantasy land because you played on their site for a year and cashed out 500 bucks 1 year of playing. Yeah your right it cant be fixed, they arent going to reward you 500 bucks for earning them 10,000 dollars of rake to keep you hooked into playing. Shoot id give you 500 dollars for making me 500 dollars. Use your head!!! We are in the most technically advanced age ever and they found an edge and are exploiting it. Play live poker for 1 hour. I challenge you and then play online for 20 min and you can see the difference. What are the odds of playing heads up poker and running into a royal flush when your opponet holds a J-3o? ASTRONOMICAL. They pick accounts to be winners, it has nothing to do with the skill of the player, odds mean nothing in online poker. They favor the bigstacks in tournaments. When the bigstack plays trash and keeps winning and never losing any coinflips being the underdog out 10 flips that means the coin has only one side!!! Don’t sit their and tell me that they just must be running hot. lol come on. Why defend that bs when it happens in every tournament!!! You can see it EVERY tournament.
    I stopped making deposits over a year ago and i suggest you do the same. I’m down two grand from online poker thats not a lot considering how much ive played, but the time ive lost is irreplacable.

  86. jimf

    I defintely think it’s rigged. I first got started on a major pokersite . Instantly started winning. I thought “Wow, this is easy money”. Soon after, I went on a horrible streak. Lost countless times with premium hands like AA and KK, usually in all-in pots. Soon, my bankroll was gone. After a long break, I made a small deposit again at this very same site. Again instant success! I built this small deposit up to $1800. Then it was like they flipped a switch. One bad beat after another till my $1800 was down to $600.

    So I went to another site. This new site offered blackjack as well. In the first few days of poker I won over $100 at the cash tables. In some MTT’s I won $275. Then again, I started losing all- in pots with premium hands till I was back where I started. So I decided to try their blackjack. Wow! Instant success! I won $1000 at blackjack. Then they flipped the blackjack switch. The dealer started getting 20 or 21 almost every hand and then that was gone.

    The bottom line is these sites let everyone have success at first to get them hooked. Then when they take your money you think it was just bad luck because you won before, so you make another deposit.

    Poker games have to be rigged to help the donkeys in poker. It’s the only way to keep them around. If they would bust out on those all-in pots like they should most of the time, they would leave the room. Without donkeys, poker rooms could not survive financially.

  87. jmitch

    With the amounts of money involved and greed being a constant in human behavior. I say we would all be quite naive to think that poker sites are all honest. Many ways to accompolish stealing and have it go undetected. Just ask Bernie Madoff about that!

  88. damien

    There is no dout online poker is not so much rigged but rigged for action , early deposits early win… after a while u lose, thats how it works. Think like this for a min…. when u look into your poker accounts and see your bankroll its just a number .. untill you collect ….. do u undertsand what im saying… the idea is for u to not collect

  89. Tomas

    Heres the 6th quads i saw that night… That was the last time i played online poker. saw a straight flush and a royal too. Couldn’t agree more that pstars is rigged for action hands Take a guess who i was =p btw… took me a full minute to push all in, knew he had it.. Not even pocket aces could have beaten me on that hand. The 6 was the only card that he most certainly had to have 2 handed. that turn card froze and took 10 seconds to come out. You don’t even want to see some of the hands i have in history over the past couple months.

    PokerStars Game #24964788300: Hold’em No Limit ($1/$2) – 2009/02/15 9:45:17 ET
    Table ‘Elisa IV’ 6-max Seat #1 is the button
    Seat 1: LUFCBas ($201.85 in chips)
    Seat 2: ronaldo500 ($164 in chips)
    Seat 3: Justelis ($203 in chips)
    Seat 4: .TilTandWiN. ($201 in chips)
    Seat 5: thevoodoo1 ($118 in chips)
    Seat 6: Bacardi08 ($245.80 in chips)
    ronaldo500: posts small blind $1
    Justelis: posts big blind $2
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to thevoodoo1 [8h 8s]
    .TilTandWiN.: folds
    thevoodoo1: calls $2
    Bacardi08: folds
    LUFCBas: raises $8 to $10
    ronaldo500: folds
    Justelis: folds
    thevoodoo1: calls $8
    *** FLOP *** [8d 6d 6c]
    thevoodoo1: checks
    LUFCBas: bets $16
    thevoodoo1: calls $16
    *** TURN *** [8d 6d 6c] [6h]
    thevoodoo1: checks
    LUFCBas: bets $32
    thevoodoo1: raises $60 to $92 and is all-in
    LUFCBas: calls $60
    *** RIVER *** [8d 6d 6c 6h] [Js]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    thevoodoo1: shows [8h 8s] (a full house, Eights full of Sixes)
    LUFCBas: shows [4s 6s] (four of a kind, Sixes)
    LUFCBas collected $236 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $239 | Rake $3
    Board [8d 6d 6c 6h Js]
    Seat 1: LUFCBas (button) showed [4s 6s] and won ($236) with four of a kind, Sixes
    Seat 2: ronaldo500 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 3: Justelis (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 4: .TilTandWiN. folded before Flop (didn’t bet)
    Seat 5: thevoodoo1 showed [8h 8s] and lost with a full house, Eights full of Sixes
    Seat 6: Bacardi08 folded before Flop (didn’t bet)

  90. jim

    Wow Tomas I feel your pain. Total bullshit. He rised with 4 6 S HITS TRIPS AGAINST YOUR FULL HOUSE AND THEN HIS ONLY OUT HITS THE TURN. HUMMMMMMMM. I would like to have that LUCK ON MY SIDE. Or was it luck he hits the turn? Can I tell you how many times I have been there. Just played a free roll A9 VS AK FOLP TOP PAIR, 99 HIT THE ACE ON TURN I NOW HAVE TOP 2 PAIR, BUT WAIT WE STILL HAVE THE RIVER TO COME. Its a king, That right he hit runner runner to take the win. I pushed all in on the turn thinking he had AX and would make the call. He did, and he did what I wanted him to do.,
    Now for what I didn’t tell you. After the hand was over a player typed the following into the chat box. ” SHIT! I HIT THE FOLD BUTTON WITH POCKET KINGS DAM” This means that the river was the case KING. Funny how the case king hit, WOW! WHAT LUCK, Or maybe I am just one unlucky fool. Only think that am so unlucky because of how often this happens.
    In short RAMDOM MY ASS! These sites all of them are total BS, They control the outcome, The cards are NOT RANDOM, ( CARD FOR CARD ) As they want you to think they are. You win only when it is your time to win, And they say when that will be. In tourneys it is based on chip count and not the best hand or player. If the players don’t pick up on this they should not be playing. Because a good player watchs and would pick up on it.
    Once more online poker is not about playing great poker. It is more about playing against the software. And that means playing your real opponent the site who in fact owns the software and is the winning player all the time.
    Lets look at a few things, Ask yourself this question. why make one dollar honestly when you can make ten by being dishonest. What risk is there if there is nothing anyone can do if you get caught. The USA has no control over these sites. And I like to add nither dose the banks who are taking a real hit, As most players were using creit to fund there accounts in the past.

  91. Ben

    After taking the time to read through many of these posts i find it quite astonishing that the number of people who have experienced the same occurence where after your initial deposit you quickly make a decent amount relative to your deposit and then all of a sudden you can’t seem to have one good session and lose it all. As yet i haven’t lost it all and i am still in profit because i withdrew money while i was still ahead. However i am currently on a down spiral on william hill (which is now part of i-poker) and i am considering withdrawing again while im still ahead. I would like to believe that online poker is 100% fair because i enjoy playing and you can play so many more hands than you would in a casino which means it should be more profitable, if you are a decent player and it’s legit. I would be interested to hear from some independent experts on software who could maybe take a little time to look at the software these sites use.

  92. Of Course It's Rigged

    The only folks that say online poker is not rigged are
    A) the site owners
    B) the site employee or
    C) someone running an affiliate site.

    You can’t play on an online poker site for one week without seeing the patterns. I agree with previous posters on everything including play the program…not the cards or the players. I have turned my $100 into $726 by following that rule. (course who knows what I would have if it weren’t for the bs) Anyway, you wouldn’t believe some of the hands I fold depending on my position and what other player is in the pot with me. I NEVER call “short-stack all in” for the first half of the tourney…ever. There’s a reason for the saying “short-stack all in wins”. After that, they will start losing those all ins no matter what they have in their hands.

    If you must play online, watch and learn the program….soon, you will be able to at least make a profit. Don’t get me wrong…they will still kick your ass sometimes with the runner, runner after all in the pot, but you can minimize the damage.

    In closing, to all of you that say it isn’t rigged, you are so naive. There is no way a good poker player can make money in online poker. You have to be willing to make some of those bs calls yourself. And you have to learn the “setups”…if you play a lot like I do…you will recognize them. I like to lovingly refer to them as the “f!@# you hand”….the unbelievable miracle hits. Pay attention and you will see and feel them coming based on where you are at in the tourney, position and chip-wise. Good luck. We truly are all suckers…lol

    p.s. Remember as well, tons of outs you will generally lose…one or two and you are good as gold!!!

  93. PokerGuy


    Of all online Poker sites, I feel that Pokerstars is the most rigged. The number of times that the worse hand sucks out on the better hand in certain situations (e.g. near the middle parts of the tournament where short stacks are pushing) seems much greater than the statistics suggests that it should.

    Don’t be misled by those who say it’s because of your bad play. Or when they tell you to prove it by showing everyone your hand histories etc. Or when they say bad beats are a normal part of poker. Bad beats ARE a normal part of poker… but so are odds. When one of two shown hands should win 80% of time, it is an anomaly when it only wins, consistently, less than 1/2 the time under a particular set of circumstances (e.g. heads up, all-in).

    The piece to the puzzle that I feel a lot of people seem to be missing is that it is not necessary for a few selected people to get all the bad beats, for a site like Pokerstars to make more money. In fact, the bad beats could be spread around… particularly when people are going all in in the middle stages of a tournament – this is to induce more people to buy into another tournament. Put another way, I don’t think it’s necessary to show that a site like Pokerstars has to single out “victims” in order to conclude that it is rigged… everybody can be a victim, and Pokerstars would still make more money!

    Further, by spreading the bad beats around among many players, “rigged” patterns cannot be tracked by any one particular individual’s hand histories… You will notice that the people who try to argue that sites like Pokerstars are not rigged, will often challenge you to prove that it is rigged by gathering your hand histories as evidence. But this is a a red herring.

    In my opinion, the analysis that ought to be performed should be specific to a situation, with ALL players’ results used. For example, consider every tournament hand where one person is all in against another, in the middle or late part of a tournament (just as an example)… How many times does the favorite hand get beaten (regardless of who holds the favorite hand – it may not be you)? This is the question that should be asked. Not surprisingly, it is difficult to get all this information, since you can generally only access your own hand histories. This is why a site like Pokerstars can get away with rigging the games in this way. This allows the site to point to your own personal hand histories and say: “no, see… you delivered bad beats on other people too on these other people… you can’t be a victim, because your were sucking out on other people too”.

    However, to show that Pokerstars is rigged, these stats should be collected not by individual, but across all players. I suspect that you would then see that the worse hand wins more often than statistics would tell you it should.

    Why do they do this? By timing the suckouts right, people will be out and will be free to play another tournament (and thus, pay another entry fee). If loose players begin to feel that suckouts are rare, and that they are always losing to tight and/or solid players, they will not deposit more money. This is bad for business. If only the tight players were left, and if they won more often, all tournaments would be mostly filled with these tight players. This also does not make for good business because these players will last longer in tournaments, and thus play fewer of them. Accordingly, there is a clear financial incentive for online sites to “tweak” the programming to induce people to play looser, for example, by allowing them to experience more wins in situations where they are practically drawing dead.

    Don’t be surprised if you, as an individual, also suck out on someone else at one point in the tournament that you are playing. You may also be “given” a win, like a small satellite or a small sit-and-go tournament. This is to give you the sense that it is possible to win on Pokerstars… but in my opinion, this is just a set up.

    You might also be told that an online site’s Random Number Generator (RNG) has been verified, and therefore it can’t be rigged. “It” is random, because a third party has verified that the RNC being used is random, they might say. This is also a red herring.

    Programmers can tell you that just because a certain piece of code utilizes a RNG doesn’t mean that the code cannot be rigged to generate a particular outcome.

    Think of a slot machine… they can be programmed to pay out a certain % of the time. This % can be tweaked. However, each individual “pull” is random, the outcome of which is a function of the value of an RNG at that particular time. So you can show that the RNG the machine uses does generate “random” numbers… but note that you can still control the frequency that the machine pays out!

    Consider also this example, a particular RNG might spit out some number between 0 and 1 at any given time. But let’s say it spits out a number between 1 and 100 for discussion purposes. You could show that the number is randomly generated by the RNG, and that a series of numbers that may be generated sequentially appear truly random. But this does not mean that a programmer couldn’t write code to implement the following scenario:

    For the next hand, let the cards come out A9TKQ (these could be random, but need not be). Now, grab the value from the RNG. If Player X is short stacked but we want him to win, give him “JJ” and give Player Y (who we wants to lose) “AA”, if the RNG number is <90. Otherwise, deal them something else.

    In this case, 90% of the time, the bad beat can be “set up” perfectly by the program. But it’s occurrence would still be technically RANDOM, because we rely on the value of the RNG, and we can independently show that the RNG, in isolation, generates random numbers.

    The problem is that even if the RNG is truly random, and even if this can be publicly tested… we will never know how the code actually USES the RNG. In my opinion, the code can definitely can be rigged. Any programmer will tell you that.

    But because we are never given access to the code, we can’t prove it. And because we don’t typically have access to hand histories other than our own, we can’t prove that it is rigged. If you had to come up with some ideas to stimulate “action” because the money was going into your pocket, but you didn’t want it to be too easily traceable, I’m sure you could think of something. Don’t you think that some of these companies have already thought of that?

    I know there will people who say… “if you think it’s rigged, don’t play”. Yes, that is true. I agree with that. But it’s too easy being a victim.

  94. andy karr

    Online poker is rigged and rotten to the core. All you need to do is listen to people to understand this.
    It robs people of their hard-earned money, and sends the most unfortunate of all into addiction, depression and suicide.
    The RNGs are all fixed and the sites are full of house players.
    To hell with online poker.
    I have just quit the game for ever and for good. I curse the day I ever heard of it. Bye bye, good riddance – I’d rather be dead than ever play again.

  95. alkeyjr

    is it possible to dispute the charges on your credit card ,after depositing on one of these rigged sites?

  96. pascal

    hello, from France

    i tried many poker rooms (all i think !)

    conclusion : dealing of the cards if everything EXCEPT RANDOM – i think all
    those sites are using the same “platform” for dealing the cards (with just local interface) because it is always the same scheme (how many rivers did i see bringing a second pair ! just an incredible number)
    i think the worst hand you can get before the flop is A-A if you are not cheap leader, you are nearly sure to loose

    WHY is it not randomized : to make the game last less time, so more players re-buy for re-play and more commission to the site !!! just as simple as this

    so, mr poker online, if you are not rigged : let us have access to your RNG code !!!!! let your site being controled to an independant party !!!!

    anyone willing to build such a site : i subscrive tomorrow to just play a fair poker

  97. Brad Reimer

    I would like to leave a reply for alkeyjr a couple of post up…sorry I realize your post was over a month ago but I see no reply yet…

    I checked at one time as to whether charges to my VISA card on an online poker site could be disputed and recovered, because I had read somewhere online that you could dispute those charges…

    Unfortunately, my VISA provider told me this was not the case — if you made the purchase using the correct card number, expiry date, and providing the CVV code on the back of the card, it was a done deal and you are responsible for the purchase…

    alkeyjr, I hope you didn’t lose too much money…online poker is the antichrist

  98. Deanomite

    I cant believe i just spent 2 hours reading through all these post. Lots and lots of “OH YEAH” that happens to me all the time. I consider myself a good player and time and time again i deposit with initial success only to lose again after a time frame. But am i really a good player with program bias keeping me down or am i just a so so player that hasnt learned how to manipulate the other players correctly and take advantage of the “very few” opportunities that these “small” advantges present themselves. poker tourbaments are not won by the same players for a reason. Sometimes your the truck, sometimes your the unfortunate stray dog that just happened to cross the road on the wrong day.

    Now, are the lower games more suspect to program fix simply because the sites understand that there would be more attention being applied to the higher cash games? There were a lot of good post both for and against these theroies, but i wonder independently, is this just the mere fact that lower stakes players tend to be less educated poker players that are willing to make bad calls and see flops they shouldnt be involved in that better players will not be? Could this surge of unexpected outcomes be just the fact that even in lives there are many hands that you fold and once the cards have played out you would have hit a “monster”. But the fact is you should have folded because that was the correct thing to do. There is a simple fact that lower stakes players will play way too many hands that they should not be involved. So i just wonder how much of the variance we see in hand outcomes is due to this fact versus the program fix for lower stakes play.

    Now, as i write this, i have not looked up enough information on the internet to find out if time has caught up with these poker sites and its been proven wether or not hand outcomes are predetermined. I have read many post about the RNG and it’s so-called randomness and agree totally with the post that question the validity of these programs. I know enough about programming to know that artificial intelligence can be written into these programs. Pure volume alone will eventually even out all random outcomes even if they are not randomnly accessed. Jim wrote an excellent post about how this can be manipulated by programming and still appear to be random by any independent testing alogorithm.

    The fact that games are created to entice people by the “action” factor is nothing new to anyone that has any encounter with gambling. Are poker sites any different than any other casino game that the house has the odds and all they want is for you to play not caring one way or the other wether you win or lose? This is a good question, especially considering the good posts on here that bring up the points that the hand outcomes are rigged to “even out” the good and bad players. The question i wonder, however, is who is the greatest programmer ever that figured out how to determine who are the good and bad players and what is the best way to even these hands out. How in thier infinite wisdom did they figure out that i always play 10-10 in my big blind against any all in shove from the button? because without this knowledge, how are they able to write a software favorable or unfavorable to give me an advantage or disadvantage. That is one programmer who needs a sunny day on the beach!!!!

    I have seemed to ramble on enough that i have forgotten what i originally set out to comment on. However, bottom line is this. I whole heartily agree that online poker sites appear to have an inclination to appear rigged for action wether it be from so so players playing hands they shouldnt be playing or from the fact that we as players really do only remember the bad beats or programmed outcome has been bias based to regulate maximum income potential for the owners of the site. (Does anyone know who really oens them???)

    We as consumers have the responsibilty to buy sell or trade at our discretion and its up to us to determine the best avenue for doing so. Is the investment into a poker site that is based outside the US responsibilities in our best interest. If you’re a winning player the answer might be yes, if you’re a losing player then the answer might be no. However, the fact is that until we have a US based industry for poker sites online that is regulated for player fairness and outcome, we can only blame ourselves and not the current online poker sites. Risk versus reward, sound familiar?

    If i’m not staring at a person dealing from the top of the deck with a card blinder on the bottom of the deck at a table of players that i feel certain are not in collusion, then i’m pretty certain i’m on an even playing field and have no problem with playing a game of chance that given the right circumstances i might have the wherwithall enough to manipulate in my favor and hope that i’m right more than i’m wrong. Hmmmm sounds like real poker.

    Visit your PPA fellas, it takes human action to counter programmed action!!

  99. frank

    I’ve played online poker for awhile now and i think there is something going on,,,it’s funny when multi tabling (two or more tables open and playing) that the same cards or comb. are on the same tables,,,u have the 6 of spades on all the tables or the k of hearts,,,it so strange,, now ur not going to tell me that the tables are not tied together some how,,, just stop playing ,,and for the ones that are winners ,,it took alot of deposits to get to where u are,,

  100. lolatthesefish

    lol at these fish. anyone who says its rigger is a either a) a complete donkey who cant accept that he sucks or b) a winning player who is suffering a completely natural downswing and cant handle his emotions.

    if you are either a or b. please keep playing so i can take your money.

    btw i grind sngs with a 14% roi and let me tell you i have experienced a 200 sng breakeven stretch and even a 400 sng slight downswing. but hey, thats just poker. (ive heard people, winning players, experiencing 1k-2k sng breakeven stretches.)

  101. Zac

    I agree with most of you guys! I believe most poker sites ARE rigged.But to what extent. I think they are rigged to give “exciting hands
    ‘ and I could go on forever about the BAD BEATS I mean there are bad beats and then there are BAD BEATS.
    Surely there must be some body out there to regulate this , I mean it is Illegal to fix a horse race so shouldnt this sort of stuff be the same.? Im sick of making deposits, and I know that there are those who say “well dont give them your money if you know its rigged” But it is an addiction to a extent there must be some law out there against blatant thievery.

  102. Zac Wolf

    Check this out.
    Was playing a $5 18 player tournry, were down to the last 5 players when I get dealt AA
    Dealt to Zac Wolf [Ac Ad]
    silkydrip raises to 1,500
    Donchent86 folds
    yolapavement folds
    Zac Wolf has 15 seconds left to act
    Donchent86: i had KK ur lucky
    Zac Wolf calls 1,250
    kastanza77 has 15 seconds left to act
    kastanza77 has requested TIME
    yolapavement: i had A 10
    kastanza77 raises to 2,990, and is all in
    silkydrip raises to 11,310, and is all in
    Zac Wolf calls 1,195, and is all in
    silkydrip shows [Kc Kd]
    Zac Wolf shows [Ac Ad]
    kastanza77 shows [As Qc]
    Uncalled bet of 8,320 returned to silkydrip
    *** FLOP *** [Ks Jc 6h]
    *** TURN *** [Ks Jc 6h] [Tc]
    *** RIVER *** [Ks Jc 6h Tc] [5h]
    silkydrip shows three of a kind, Kings
    kastanza77 shows a straight, Ace high
    kastanza77 wins the side pot (590) with a straight, Ace high
    Zac Wolf shows a pair of Aces
    kastanza77 wins the main pot (8,085) with a straight, Ace high
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 8,675 Main pot 8,085. Side pot 590. | Rake 0
    Board: [Ks Jc 6h Tc 5h]
    Seat 1: kastanza77 (big blind) showed [As Qc] and won (8,675) with a straight, Ace high
    Seat 2: silkydrip showed [Kc Kd] and lost with three of a kind, Kings
    Seat 4: Donchent86 didn’t bet (folded)
    Seat 6: yolapavement (button) didn’t bet (folded)
    Seat 7: Zac Wolf (small blind) showed [Ac Ad] and lost with a pair of Aces

    I lost of course, the worst hand wins again. F@#KING B@LLSHIT!

  103. Tokata

    My story and a question

    I am a pretty good card player in general, having played a lot of bridge and other trump related games in the past. I have also played some poker and other gambling oriented games on and off. So I decide I want to play some online poker for small stakes, just cos it would be fun and I would really like to learn to play well (as much as one can online). I sign up with Pokerstars and Full tilt, have a mess around with a lot of play money hands etc, and I do ok. So then I go read some books and look at loads of stuff online, learning a ton of stuff to help my game. I am just a beginner in the poker world, but am intelligent, a good card player and learning fast.

    I decide I am not gonna throw my money away as I am a noob. While I know how to play the game, I need to at least improve some before taking the plunge with real stakes. So I start playing freerolls and do pretty ok. Even from the start I am finishing in the top 30% in most tourneys, getting close to winning or qualifying once or twice.

    However… along the way, when being eliminated or just in general play, I find myself saying out loud things like ‘get real’, ‘where the hell did he pull THAT card from’, ‘you gotta be kidding me, no way do you pull a Jack on the river to make that straight’. Or saying to my wife; ‘Hell I know I am only
    learning, but I am no idiot. Either I am the unluckiest guy alive or there is something funny here’. And so it went on for about a week, culminating in the last two nights…

    Freeroll tourney 1: I have hand with top pair, 4 cards down, I am big favourite, need a pot top get me back in the game. I go all in, top stack calls and drops a 2 on the river to make a small straight. I am Gobsmacked! I get up, walk around the room, kick the cat (jk) and so on. After ten mins I cool down. Ok, this stuff happens, just bad luck. You are just angry and bitter cos you lost. Get over it.

    Freeroll tourney 2: (The next night). More or less identical situation, I play tight, tight, waiting for my hand to get a nice pot. Same again. I have top pair (10s), 4 cards down, all small, possible (but unlikely) low straight draw. I go all in, I am called and guess what… Yep, this time a 3 drops on the
    river, he makes a straight and I am history. I say something like ‘You have gotta be having a laugh.. twice in 2 nights, almost identical.. RIGHT!!’

    Then I started to think back to all the times I went all in with good pairs or AK and got beat. The times I had trips and there is a straight, the times I had a straight and two suited runners drop for the opponents flush and so on.

    So, Point 1: I came to the conclusion that, after just a few days of playing, that there is definitely something fishy going on with online poker. The number or weird hands, bad beats and just unbelievable drops happen just way too often.

    Point 2, and most importantly: I am not bitter and twisted about losing $n, cos i have never put a cent into any of the sites. So I cant be accused on that score. I haven’t lost or won a thing and yet in a very short time I feel angry and insulted.

    There you go. After just about a week of online poker, I have serious suspicions about its fairness and the random element of the cards. Of course, I or no-one else can prove anything, but my vote is ‘It is somehow fixed or rigged to run the way that the sites want it to’.

    Lastly, a question, trying to be pro-active rather than just negative. I really enjoy playing online poker. I was having a great time until I started to realise some of the stuff that was happening.
    So, does anyone know of an online poker site that IS fair and random and where I might just have the chance to lose my money by playing badly rather than thinking all the time that I have been cheated?

    Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

  104. MUGF1SH

    I have played on many of the online poker sites and they are all the same, rigged. There is no doubt in my mind and also nearly all the players I play with agree that something isn’t right.
    I currently play on 888 pacific poker and I do win overall but very slowly. You have to accept the incredible bad beats and downswings and know that you will win it back in your next good spell.
    You cannot win online by playing proper poker, you have to adapt your game to a game where you are recognising and folding out of as many bent hands as you can even if you have a good hand sometimes its best to fold because the alternative better hand is ALWAYS there.
    You will still get caught out by highly improbable river beats but the plan is to win more bent ones than lose. If these happened now and again you could accept it was random but they appear just too often.
    The biggest single thing I think that gives it away is the appearance so often of multiple pairs. You very rarely get a pair where there isn’t at least one other pair present, often 3 or 4 pairs. I read a post earlier where the chap said he could predict from his hand (pair) what other hand would be present and this is absolutely true.
    I went on the 888 forum to voice my opinion and got some serious abuse from a few anti bentness guys, I gave some abuse back and got banned for abuse. They obviously dont want the rigged cards theorists spouting off on their sites.
    For all those who say it isn’t profitable do some maths. they take 5% rake from every pot. At on average 80 HH per table. This is on maybe 200 tables at varying stakes 24/7. If they can increase the average pot by 5% that works out at serious money per year.
    The anti -bentness lobby also say that if it were rigged it would have been proved by now. It cant be proved, you cannot prove beyond doubt that something is IMPROBABLE.
    I said on the 888 forum that in theory the lottery numbers COULD be 1 2 3 4 5 6, then the following week be 1 2 3 4 5 6 again. This is incredibly improbable but not impossible. Go into a court of law and see how far you get proving that those lottery numbers were rigged. Because it is not impossible you cannot prove BEYOND DOUBT that they were not random. This is what the poker sites rely on to continue cheating.
    Studies have been done on many 1000’s of hands that prove the cards are what you would expect from a real deck. It is a question of alignment of hands at a table, easy to do for a programmer. You will have KQ at the same time as someone got 22 and the flop will be KQ2. The same thing with the multi pairs.
    All the people that are suspicious you are very right to be, you dont want to believe it because you think these sites are reputable companies with ads on the tv etc. But analyse it and compare it to real poker if you play and you will see that it is totally different. Play for play money on a site like zynga for a reality check. Because it is not for money there the incredible hands just dont appear. If you play all day you might see one. Dont believe the “It’s because you are crap at poker” lot either. They are only winning the same way as me by playing the bentness, probably with the use of software like pokertrackers and the like.
    P.S It took me 6 months of losing to realise that playing the correct “tight aggressive” game online was not working. I was simply getting beat all the time by crap. So I went by the theory if you cant beat em join em, and from that developed a strategy to win albeit slowly. Have you ever had a player raise preflop with 82 suited or similar and smoke your AK and you think “why is he raising with 82?”.

  105. hahauallsuck

    hahahaha to the guy who lost with aces hahahhaha it was a 5 dollar tourney stfu loser u suck thats all there is to it and once again to all you losers out there you suck at poker just do all us real players a favor and give it up where sick of hearing u bitch and moan u suck wah wah wah In closing u all suck and online poker aint rigged u just all suck hahahahhahahaahaha

  106. MUGF1SH

    It is you that suck you pecker head. Online poker is rigged. You would have to be blind and stupid to not see it.

  107. Anonymous

    FCUK Pokerstars. RNG is NOT random….. I have played 3000 DON’s in a year starting at very small stakes ($5, $10), and did OK initially despite being a poor begginner/newbie as you would expect. Managed to somehow get my bankroll built up and then decided to experiment with $10 and even $20 DON’S playing 2 and even 4 tables at once….. Of course…. I struggled at first but was improving with every game played. Then after making some money and cashing out, guess what? Something changed. That’s right… you guessed. I stopped winning. I was suddenly struggling to break even (even though I was a much much better player than before)…. hmmm…. I started doubting myself , even though something told me I was better than 50% of the players (enough to cash). I did something a little crazy and tried $50 DON’s and guess what? I made money (initially). Not only did I make money, but I more than held my own…. So…… I cashed out again after some time and guess what? That’s right…. the pattern repeated as before… In fact… I have found that everytime I try a new level after some time e.g. I will go back to $20 DON’s, I start good again and everything seems to play ‘fair’ and ‘true’. I rationalise this by the fact that I am a better player, only for the amazing downswing to come back AGAIN!!! Unfortnately, I am not a mathematical expert and I can’t explain or give any conclusive mathematical logic to back up or prove what I am most definelty experiencing and feeling, but I am also NOT stupid and nor I am that bad a player to be experiencing bad beat after bad beat after bad beat etc etc etc…. 1 example about 2 days ago was when I was HU on 20 seperate ocasions in the same night with the favourite hand preflop, I lost 17 times! thats right I lost 17/20 despite being the overwhelming favourite preflop. Coincidence? Well… It never happens like this when I first start playing a type of game after a break! But after gettting some success e.g. winning in 11 out of the 16 $20 games played earlier today, only to lose 15 of the next 20!!! I am a tight/selective agressive player and I am definitley capable of playing 60 x $20 DON’s per day cashing in 34-36 of them and thus making a reasonable profit. I know I am…. But……. for some reason…. I can now see that the software/RNG **** will not let me! That is not random my friends…… And for the record, I had only ever played live once before… so I had virtually only played exclusively online until about 4 weeks ago. I had trusted that online poker was the same as live poker…. just online. Thats how it is marketed at least. Well…. interestingly enough…. about 4 weeks ago, I decided to go to a real casino for only the 2nd time to play a real live tournement. There was 26 players and I played the same way I play onlne… I came 1st and noticed how it was more or less 50/50 in terms of luck!!!! I immediately saw in that 6 hours of tournement play how online poker is so rigged. I decided to go a 3rd time to the casino the following week and entered another tournment, this time 36 players and a bit more serious. I came 1st again) Although…. I do accept there are far less hands being dealt and yes there are less players entering a pot and staying in a pot than maybe you get online, the way the RNG seems to deal the cards is definitley iffy. It is as if ‘somebody’ is literally picking which cards will come on flop/turn and river. How often do I have a big starting hand and somebody else out there has a bigger starting hand… How often are they hitting their set and I am hitting my pair! How often do I hit and they hit bigger! How do I have 2 overcards but miss? Too many coincidences happening and finally today after 1 year of online experience (3000+) DON’s at all levels up to $100 and some MTT’s I have hung up my online playing boots. It’s a shame because I genuinly love poker, but I have no time to play in a real casino. But…. I have been frozen out by this unfair RNG ****. By all means, I am willing to play online if it plays the way it plays when I first play…. But if it’s going to start changing the levels and making it harder for me after I win some money then that is NOT random nor is it fair!!!!! Pokerstars, you should be ashamed of yourself and I look forward to the day you are fully exposed for what you are. FCUK you Riverstars……

  108. Robbie

    I only can say to anonymous: you are one hundred percent right. The e-mail sent by pokerstars says it all. They have every single hand ever played. They have access to everything, so also to the means to manipulate. I wont stop playing online, but i will only play playmoney and some freerolls. For the record: i did not lose one cent in online poker. I will only play with money i earn in a freeroll. Yes, i am a far better player than before, but i experience the same as you anonymous. I am always among the best 20 percent of the players, but i hardly get to the prizes anymore. The software seemed to have changed, or it seems as if i am in a special programm of pokerstars. Did you also notice that you very often get a good pocket under the hammer? And you always get beaten by a better hand. A classic one: i get beaten constantly by straight while having 3 of a kind. Pokerstars will die, but they know that already. What you say about the casino is correct. They have no interest in manipulating, they are no party in the pokergame itself, but pokerstars is. To everybody: good HONEST luck at the tables.

  109. Adrian

    Yep every thing has been said I learned my game on the xbox I can play at any level and win 70% (top 3 of 8) at a level better than the low tables I have just started on (william Hill) it took me 4 years to get a royal on the xbox it has taken me 3 days on here pairs are nearly always topped by another pair or AK i just lost my two last tornees by lossing two QQ QQ (in a row) one to the low stack the other to highest…..two QQs how many times!!….yes it can be luck but not likely, not playing the low stack is right one low chip player won 4 all in with no hands in a row.

    As stated above I have been playing online poker for four years only not for money, points on the xbox 360 and I got to 150 in the world (of about 150000). After learning my skills there, I decided to go online (once before and this week same results both times) to play for money.

    Wow if this is not rigged I must be useless. Or for four years, I never once had a bad beat. But I now know what it is like to lose (or to win a lossing hand for that matter).

    I did try to play on line two years ago, but again only stayed for one week….Having seen in two days of playing at 888.com. 5 AA vrs KK, got my customary, Royal Flush (yep both sites!) and watched one player rise an already re-raised high stake, bringing in yet another player (4 all in AK top) to win on the river with 6-4 off suit. This after not playing a hand for ages.

    Because I have played “on line” style for four years I am used to the fast hand play, but I am not use to seeing every other hand, with three of one suit in it! This may be over estimated, but it was many times more than I am use to.
    People can talk about new players chasing, but that is why they eventually lose (if only!) I have won more tournaments by playing as a noob than by holding and playing tight aggressive, which never works on these sites.

    In one tournament game I played AA (me)vrs KK happen with the king winning. The same player five mins. later gets another KK, all ins called wrongly by someone with a queen high that makes a straight. With in half a day, I had had 4 AA and lost three off them. In the two tournaments, I won I was lossing both hands. I am no expert, I do not note my hands, etc. but I have played over 18,000 hands (it took me over 17,000 to get my first point based royal flush!) but I rearly see AA,KK together 229 twice do the maths, that one each every 20 played hands at the same time. Above happen two years ago a different site. Yet I has not changed, I have already in three days, Lost an AA to a AK with 245 on the deck, yes two kings and to the chip leader!!!! then add in a Royal Flush and three AK seen in three hands, thats in 30 hands instead of 687 and none one!!! and that why I agreed with all that said above re Rigged..it is these happening once could be a fluck but I have tried this now twice on two sites and the same happens………..But you can at least get to see a Royal Flush!!!!!!!!!

    The money games did not seam to favour anyone much, but it did seam to reward chasing (i.e. more bids). And yes i went out so many time on bad beats so yes I went st8 into another tournament… because it was not my fault so my pride was not damaged etc etc (see many above).

    Lastly and most importantly the by far the biggest line “no riggers” state is “it is because there are so many new players who want to see all the hands that is strange results happen”. Again my past experience would dispute this. The xbox tournaments are played for free (max win 2000p), 4000p (max win 16,000p), 50000p (max win 200000p),and 500000P (max win 2000000p) disconnect you lose. This is not for money, so play can be very loose at times, but not always, particularly at 50,0000p as it takes a long time to get there, so play is taken very seriously. 4000p hands are similar to $2 hand in the fact that you get both good and bad players, with obviously many chasers…. Fantastic!

    Online for money the chasers win for points they dont (and back to the all in free tables they go). If its not rigged then my results would be the same, I have learnt on line and have nearly always played on line.

    On line for cash I lose, for points I win and for live cash my friends will no longer play me!

    But hey dont let this worry you, go and pay (sorry play) I am obviously just a bad losser!

  110. Retro

    Seriously, you guys are absolutely pathetic.

    Don’t you realise that you’re generally sitting against 8 or 9 other players? What do the poker sites do? Work out which one they want to “get” and just let the other 8 players win? Or do they stick bad beats on 5 players and let the other 4 win?

    I saw quad Kings beaten by quad Aces in a live game the other day. Saw trip 5s turned over by trip 6s in the same game. Was the game rigged? No. How do I know? I was dealing.

    The fact is that when playing live – which most of you never ever, ever, EVER have – you get bad beats. Jacks trounced by Queens, Queens beaten by Kings, Kings beaten by Aces…it happens. If you get 3 bad beats an hour at a live game, you get 9 per hour on an online table, because you play three times as many hands.

    Also, isn’t it funny how half the people on here have been spotted elsewhere talking about the “sick beat” that they laid on someone? I guess when that happens, the poker site isn’t rigged, is it, fellas? Its just your skill and judgement that grabbed the 4% chance from the flames. Losers cry when they lose. Winners work out why they lost and then fix the problem.

    And to the guy comparing cash poker to poker on Xbox Live Arcade. Seriously dude, step outside and smell the roses. The games just CANNOT be compared. You’re comparing free poker with no prizes to cash poker where every hand is worth money. If you can’t tighten up on the real tables, you’re in no position to blame the house.

  111. noeldhayne paulino

    play poker and enjoy d excitement

  112. noeldhayne paulino

    play poker with ur friends…

  113. Is Poker Rigged?

    I like your post – I like the way that you put forth a logical argument of why poker is not rigged.

    However, the problem with logical arguments is that there are often arguments against them – the number of comments shows this!

    At Online Poker Watchdog we have gone beyond logical arguments by doing tests that would show evidence if sites were rigged in a certain way. For example, too many bad beats would show up.

    We’ve tested 4 major sites so far and no evidence of rigging so far.


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